What Really Happened to MH17? – An open source investigation
by James Corbett
corbettreport.com
July 20, 2014
This post is intended as a round-up of available information on MH17 from various sources around the web. Corbett Report members are encouraged to debate and discuss the situation in the commments thread below, ask questions, suggest links, and otherwise contribute to this investigation. The article will be updated with information as the investigation continues. [Not a Corbett Report member? Sign up today.]
GENERAL INFORMATION ON MH17:
“A Boeing 777-200 passenger plane, operating Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, crashed in the Ukraine, east of Donetsk. All 298 on board were killed. Flight MH17 departed the gate at Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport, the Netherlands at 12:14 hours local time, bound for Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. It was airborne at 12:30 (10:30 UTC) from runway 36C and reached a cruising altitude of FL310 at 12:53 (10:53 UTC). Ninety minutes into the flight, at 12:01 UTC and just prior to entering Ukrainian airspace, the flight climbed to FL330. This altitude was maintained until last contact by ADS-B receivers of flight tracking websites, about 13:21 UTC.
“At the point of last contact it was flying 1000 feet above airspace that had been restricted as a result of ongoing fighting in the area. Malaysia Airlines reported that MH17 filed a flight plan requesting FL350 throughout Ukrainian airspace. However, the flight was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at FL330.”
FLIGHT PATH:
via ZeroHedge:
Perhaps the best visualization of what the issue is, comes from Vagelis Karmiros who has collated all the recent MH-17 flight paths as tracked by Flightaware and shows that while all ten most recent paths pass safely well south of the Donetsk region, and cross the zone above the Sea of Azov, it was only today’s tragic flight that passed straight overhead Donetsk.
via New York Times:
A survey of flights to Asia from Europe in the last week found that some airlines had been flying over eastern Ukraine and some had been avoiding the area. Source: Flight path data from flightradar24.com
RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CRASH:
Ukraine’s Position
ITAR-TASS reported in June that Donetsk defense forces seized BUK missile defence systems from an army unit operating in the region, a point repeated and echoed by NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe General Philip Breedlove in a Pentagon press briefing on June 30. However, this was directly contradicted on July 18th by Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema, who told Ukrainian Pravda that militias do not have access to BUK delivery systems or S-300s.
On July 19, Ukrainian intelligence posted what they claim to be intercepted communications showing Russian responsibility for the downing of MH17 along with an English transcript. Numerous alternative media sources claim that the creation timestamp on the video indicates it was created before the crash took place.
Ukraine also claims that a post appeared on the social media account of rebel commander Igor Strelkov exactly 35 minutes after the crash appearing to take credit for the downing. Subsequent reporting, however, pointed out that the post was ambiguously worded and the social media account in question may not be run by Strelkov at all.
The Ukraine security service also published a video on July 18th purporting to show the actual BUK missile launcher used to bring down the plane being shuttled back across the border from Ukraine to Russia. Despite the fact that there is no confirmation from any source when, where or how this video was taken, or whether it in fact shows a BUK system on a Russian transport vehicle, it has been uncritically reported on in much of the western press.
Alternative Positions
In a statement issued late in the day on July 17th, Russian President Putin said: “I want to note that this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine. And, certainly, the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy.”
A report originally posted to RT.com shortly after the downing suggested that the real target of the missile might have been President Putin’s plane, which was said to have been scheduled to fly over the exact same airspace as MH17 less than an hour after it was shot down. This claim has since been retracted and RT has noted that Putin has been avoiding Ukrainian airspace altogether since the recent coup took place in Kiev.
According to a report circulating widely in the alternative media, a Spanish air traffic controller working in the Ukraine on the 17th tweeted a series of messages indicating that the Ukrainian military shot down the flight and that “Kiev authorities” and “foreigners” subsequently took over the civilian air traffic control center overseeing the disputed airspace in an apparent cover-up. The twitter account (@spainbuca) of the alleged air traffic controller, “Carlos,” was then reportedly removed. [UPDATE: RT has conducted interviews with Carlos, who has been deported from Ukraine.]
Some researchers suggest that the timing of the disaster, coming as it does right after Putin heralded the beginning of the long-awaited BRICS Development Bank is more than coincidental. This theory posits that the crash was staged by the US/EU/NATO or other powers as part of a proxy war taking place in the “new cold war” between Russia (one of the key players in an organization that is seen as a key rival to the so-called “Washington Consensus” institutions, the IMF and the World Bank) and the US.
Some have suggested that the takedown of MH17 was also related to the six passengers on board who were heading to an AIDS conference in Melbourne hosted by the International AIDS society. The theory holds that the researchers were going to question the origins of AIDS and were taken out in a similar manner to Dr. Jonathan Mann.
Yet others point to the numerology of MH17, noting “Flight MH17, a Boeing 777, first flew on 7-17-97 and crashed 17 years later, on 7-17-14.” It has also been linked to a bizarre video of a speech IMF President Christine Lagarde gave at the National Press Club in Washington on January 15, 2014 in which she repeatedly told the audience to pay attention to the “magic number 7” and made numerological connections to WWI and other events.
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OK, guys, let me get the ball rolling: Is there anyone here who can reproduce (or better yet, explain HOW to reproduce) the claim that the Ukraine security service’s alleged Russian communication intercept was created before MH17 crashed? How easy would it be to forge this time stamp on a video file? Is it possible that a computer with an incorrect date or some other error could account for this? Can anyone find counterexamples where incorrect time stamps can be demonstrated as a result of error? Any other thoughts on the value of this claim?
Just found this James…as a fellow Canadian thought you might be interested:
http://bodhita.com/putin-threatened-obama-minutes-before-mh17-was-shot-down/
“Within 5-minutes of President Putin warning his US counterpart, President Obama, that “war games†being carried out by NATO member Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) forces over Romania could lead to a “potential catastropheâ€, Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was destroyed over the eastern conflict region of Ukraine.”
…
The RCAF CF-18 Hornets belong to the 425 Tactical Fighter Squadron and began arriving in Romania in the days prior to the 5-10 June where they began engaging in “highly provocative war gamesâ€, this report says, which included electronic jamming of civilian flight radars.
So “provocative†have RCAF pilots been, last week that they were tasked by NATO to begin “direct confrontations†along the Russia border with Lithuania against Russian Air Force pilots beginning in August.”
*************************
So the big boys are going to use Canadian military as cannon fodder again
James, to continue my thoughts on MH17 I note above you wrote:
“RT has noted that Putin has been avoiding Ukrainian airspace altogether since the recent coup took place in Kiev.”
Question is, did the perps know this? If they didn’t, they may have ASS-U-ME d that the plane was Putins.
however,
That doesn’t account for one of the most troubling aspects of this false flag…the “pre-dead” passengers. Witnesses say the passengers’ bodies appeared to have been dead for some time in advanced stages of decomposition and were “bloodless”. Also, there was a lot of blood serum and “medications” in the wreckage.
This leads me to wonder about the prospect of biological warfare. It also brings to mind the long missing and presumed dead passengers of MH370. I am looking forward to positive identification of ALL the passengers. Keep in mind the “pre dead” passengers could have been put into the baggage compartment at Shiphol.
I would think that any timestamp can be ‘wrong’ depending on anomalies on the original make-up of the file (ex. camera or computer that has a wrong date)
This link provides a supposedly simple way to alter the timestap after it is first created, so even if it originally was correct/wrong, you’d still be able to change it to whatever you want.
http://www.trickyways.com/2009/08/how-to-change-timestamp-of-a-file-in-windows-file-created-modified-and-accessed/
It might be possible, but that’s more a question for a computer programmer, that in the metadata itself, there is still a layer of original timestamp, even after alteration, but I myself don’t know enough about that possibility.
So, in conclusion, if the last option isn’t possible (due to how the metadata file structure is made up and presuming it doesn’t log all alteration) it seems quite easy to change timestamp, timecode,… of most files and or media
ps: I read an interesting comment in the YT-video on the magical mystery number 7 by Lagarde. She mentions at the time that the G7 or G20 would maybe have to deal with the economic recovery and somebody spotted that at that time Russia (despite early tensions) was still a part of the G8. But that might be just because 7 sounded good in between all the others. Or not (and she already knew that the tensions would reach a phase where G8 would kick out Russia for G7)
The G8 has long wanted to kick Russia out… Putting refused to allow the US to attend a BRICS meeting a few years ago. That was it.
I’m a software developer and I know that any data on any server can be modified, provided you have the required authorization. Given the power that secret services have over the internet, I have no doubt whatsoever that they have access to this kind of metadata on youtube and can change it anyway they like.
So, someone was sloppy and they just don’t care for the lone conspiracy nut that will find this anomaly. This could also be a deliberate distraction.
Anyway, when did anonymous youtube videos become legitimate evidence for anything? This video has achieved it’s purpose already by framing this image in the minds of the masses. Proving this video to be a fraud will not change that.
I could give technical details on SQL scripts, or XML manipulation, I’m not even sure how data is stored on the youtube servers, but that’s not important. If you have power over the server you have power over the data and you can do with it as you like. You can never be sure of any data on the internet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKyuNnwbuUc
In this video (Ukrainian spoken, German subtitles) a rebel woman explains how jetfighters of the Ukrainian army use civilian airplanes to hide during an attack. They fly in behind the airliner, dive down to drop bombs and then jump up behind the airliner again. Incoming rockets would be attracted by the larger airliner. She expects the military is trying to lure the rebels into shooting a civilian target to label them as terrorist and provoke international action against them.
I’m sure this video was uploaded before the attack, because I’ve seen it myself a couple of weeks ago.
The flight path of MH17 is very suspicious. Also it seems the rebels were at first convinced a military plane was shot down. When you have equipment sophisticated enough to shoot a plane at 10km, then radar will tell you the difference. All planes have transponders.
Could someone have messed with the transponder of MH17, making it look like a military plane and deliberately have send it over the conflict area?
Some very interesting comments. Bart your point is well taken especially since there were reports of Ukrainian jets in the area just before the event.
However another angle is that there was no real crash at all. I’ve been following a discussion on American Everyman that points out major discrepancies in the “debris field”. The one site that has been extensively photographed is quite small. The low angle pictures deliberately conceal this fact. Also the larger pieces of debris in the wheat field have tramped down paths leading to them from the road which goes right by and could easily serve as a staging point for trucking the material in. I posted this link earlier on another page at Corbett Report.
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/flight-mh17s-tiny-roadside-crash-site-images/#more-30613
Just today I found this link which sheds light on why video footage of the ground explosions were made from a distance then there was no apparent smoke of trail of fire raining down from the sky. It adds an important element of “pre planning” on the part of the minions of the Kiev government.
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2014/07/19/employees-of-ukraines-richest-anti-seperatist-billionaire-record-explosion-prior-to-impact-no-smoke-trail-in-the-air/#more-30640
Putin’s comment seems to support Bart’s position yet the anomalies and coincidences highlighted in these other accounts are interesting as well.
Interesting angle, but for that to be true, the rebels must have collaborated in staging this event. The crash site is right in the center of rebel territory. Also I heard the OSCE investigators will be looking in an area of 25 to 30 km2. There may be more debris fields, but only this one is made available for the press.
I guess the most interesting part of the “staged event” element is that it challenges the idea that the “rebels” hold uniform and effective sway over all movement within their area. If this coal billionaire has his own little army and infrastructure to work with he could have coordinated the event and then withdrawn quickly to lay subsequent “discoveries” at the door step of the actual separatists.
I personally would like to see images of the second debris field. Verification is the key to everything now.
You make a good point there. There might be factions within rebel territory that conspire against the rebels. There were coal miners at the crash site.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/coal-miners-comb-malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-site-ukraine-n159096
I agree that the images we’ve seen so far don’t account for the entire wreckage. Let’s hope there will be some aerial footage soon, that will give a better perspective. I think it’s too soon to endorse this theory, but I’ll keep it open for consideration.
I have two perspectives thus far on why it happened:
1) We’re dealing with yet another ‘chess-move’ on the ‘global chessboard’. The move made here might not be the primary one, but still may be necessary in a longer strategy, for example towards ‘neutralizing’ Russia in possible future moves. (What strikes me is that less and less seemingly ‘accidental’ or ‘random’ events seems to happen. Most often things like these does not happen without someone deliberately pulling the strings for a specific out come.)
2) This is albeit a bit more farfetched however I’m not excluding anything these days: On board the plane was a delegation of the world’s leading experts in the field of HIV/Aids treatment. Is it possible that someone aboard that plane was a direct target?
1) Chess pieces were definitely moved, but by who and to which square is yet to be determined. One thing was certainly achieved. The Dutch public is openly calling for war with Russia. I’ve spend most of the day reading Dutch forums and it’s really astounding how little is needed to get people so psyched up that they are willing to trow anything we have at Russia. We hardly have an army, but still they want to go all the way.
2) There is some speculation about Joep Lange, who died in the crash. He was supposedly a famous researcher advocating the ‘alternative’ PREP treatment, which could potentially effect Big Pharma’s profits. I’m not really into these subjects, so I can’t tell how credible this rumor is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joep_Lange
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-exposure_prophylaxis
I don’t think one person is important enough to stage such a large event. But, when they are staging such a large event, they will try to kill as many birds with one stone as possible. Remember the peculiar passenger-lists on 9/11.
Just a thought, the Dutch press is also likely a victim of cognitive infiltration (a la Cass Sunstein). Those sentiments and fervor may not reflect the true Dutch public, but they may be paid posters working for the NWO…
Of course the army of trolls was send in to hype things up, but the moderate, regular posters were also losing it. Even some of my colleagues were talking about war with Russia like it was unavoidable. The fear-based propaganda is frighteningly effective.
Here are some front pages of the biggest newspaper in Holland.
http://www.telegraaf.nl/telegraaf-i/
I don’t need to translate the headlines for you to know which image they want to create. The rest of the newspapers are all the same. Our PM does a live press conference 3 times a day. This is a very sophisticated attack on the minds of the people.
But I also noticed more people questioning the propaganda then ever before, even on the forums of the large newspapers. But the moderators are relentless. There are treads with more then half of the posts deleted. Nevertheless I feel that more and more people are ready to learn more about what’s really going on.
I have my two cents about a possible motive too Anna.
They have killed three birds with one stone here.
First the Russian/West “tension” has escalated which is part of the hegelian game. Second, there were 100 HIV activist researchers on board. An activist researcher, we can all agree, is someone looking to expose the truth, speak truth to power, seek justice for victims. It is known that the human immunodeficiency virus has never been isolated. No one had ever viewed it and there is no proof of its existence. So, we have been lied to. What causes AIDS?
There was another young woman, a PhD candidate who had put together a visual presentation of her treatment for cancer and alzheimer’s. Here are some links:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/karlijn-keijzer-and-quinn-schansman-were-aboard-malaysia-airlines-flight-17.html?_r=0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ow9rdOdNe0
So, an hypothesis is easy-it’s coming up with the evidence that is the trick.
They are appealing to emotion when they show pictures of children, they report in overt detail the AIDS experts and their contribution to society, etc. It is an appeal that feels familiar because it is (think 9/11). When emotions can be manipulated to do something, like seek “justice,” standby for some more explosive things to happen (think 3 Israeli teens murdered, full Gaza onslaught!)
Great point.
Great stuff on here, exactly what I am anticipating going forward with this group of world-wise individuals. There are so many possibilities, and that’s exactly what whoever ordered this (as I am at least sure that this was ordered!) is intending, so as to mold opinion. In reading and listening to many different viewpoints and theories I have one possibility to offer up…First I think that things on the ground in E Ukraine had started to shift in recent days, the rebels were being pushed back from their positions after a “cease-fire” had allowed a refit and resupply of the Ukrainian forces by the west/NATO. Also it seems that there was no significant resupply of the rebels by the Russians. Also, Putin was calling for a larger/more permanent cease-fire, and connecting the dots he was tacitly giving up on the Ukrainian resistance. (As an aside, contrary to popular alt-media chatter, I believe Putin is much more compromised/blackmailed by the west, he and his coterie are very connected the the western banking system. Also look at his past history with the surrender to the west in the sinking of the Kursk) So All that leads me to a theory that the rebels brought down the plane with the support of the pro rebel Russian military that wants to draw in NATO to a larger ground presence. Remember that Putin has the same militarist nut-cases as the likes of McCain and Lindsey Graham, and he’s being pushed very hard by them.
This theory has some issues. Here is Putin speaking just a short time ago:
http://rt.com/news/174268-ukraine-mh17-crash-putin/
You are never going to find the perfect leader…they are all going to have some baggage so to speak. Putin (as he said about Proshenko a few weeks ago) does not yet “have any blood on his hands” (in terms of the Eastern Ukraine.
There is absolutely no motive/benefit for Russia to do this. In fact, the Novorussians were making headway and had boxed in the Junta military in a few areas. That is why Putin was wanting peace…the Novorussians had carved out a few areas of their own.
On the other hand, Kiev has always wanted to bring NATO into the conflict and branding the Novorussians as “terrorists” was one sure way to do it.
I was breezing over a couple web channels, RT and Al Jazeera, to get a sense of the story from a couple of propagandistic angles and one of the things I’m recalling was a couple of shots of luggage which looked like it was in very good condition. Can’t help thinking about the pristine 9/11 passport “found” at the wtc. It’s quite likely that’s coloring my recollection, but it’s just a thought. I guess I’ll go back and take a quick look and post something if, first; I actually find what I saw, or second; my recollection wasn’t in fact “colored” as stated above. Then again, there’s no reason why the luggage would have to have been messed up (or maybe there is, but I’m not a crash expert) , but it’s worth looking at anomalies between close up shots and wider views of the crash area. I’m going to try to keep my speculations within at least reasonable boundaries, but there’s quite a lot of smoke coming off of this wreckage, so it’s worth trying to peel away some of the rubbish while the crime scene is still relatively fresh.
This is exciting seeing how this member feature is already taking shape. Thanks James and thanks to those of you who’ve already shared ideas.
A quick side note to James: I’m not sure whether it’s easy to add, but I know there’s an option on the BFP forum to receive notifications when someone replies to you or the post you’ve already commented on. This is a nice feature and I know, at least for me, it’s a good insurance policy on not accidentally ignoring a potential follow up question on a post. That said, I really like the ability to go back and change something if you make a mistake initially. (Can’t think of how many times that would’ve come in handy;)
Anyway, just throwing that out there (sorry to clog the thread). Thanks again James for taking it upon yourself to make the member interactivity concept a reality on top of everything else you already do! On that note, I hope you’re enjoying some much deserved vacation time =]
~Benny
Thanks for the suggestion, Benny. I have added this functionality, so you can now choose to receive email notifications when someone responds to your post. This option is located just below the “Submit Comment” box.
Yes indeed the luggage and passports were pristine. The bodies badly mangled and the entire area burned. We’ve got some anomalies in the laws of nature operating again. Presumably everything going forward will be spun in terms of “evidence was altered in the rebel held area”.
Here is what MSM and CFR is saying:MSM on Flt MH17: http://youtu.be/tnkGeIfCaUE; MSM & CFR: Version of what happened to MH17: http://youtu.be/0CAJWK5ji7E; MSM on MH17 part2: http://youtu.be/Ob9_PJmWG_w; MSM on Flt MH17 part3: http://youtu.be/0gXs34SMafk.
Bottom line is for the U.S., EU/NATO to isolate Putin, and that will lead to a double edged victory both in the Ukraine & eventually Syria.
Doesn’t matter what analysis and truth reveals, the die is cast and the stage is set. This script has been written, produced, directed, and now being promoted as it plays at a theater near you, your TV.
Yes I`ve seen some peculiar time stamps on the comments. I suppose they are time stamped when you receive them in Japan James.
I posted this comment so that later i could see the time stamp on it.
It is 1:01 P.M 7/20/14
The site runs, as I do, on Japan Standard Time: http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/jst.html
I have no clue as to what happened to that aircraft but I have a much better understanding of how time/date stamping can be manipulated.
I found the following text on sacred-texts.com:
“The number 7 was curiously related to H. P. Blavatsky and the Theosophical Society. “Lucifer” was first published in 1887, and 1887 is the sum of 17 hundreds, 17 tens, and 17 units; H. P. B. lived at 17 Lansdowne Road, and 17 Avenue Road; “Lucifer” was published at 7 Duke Street; 7 volumes were completed at her death; Colonel Olcott first met her at 7 Beckman Street, and later at 71 Broadway, New York. Anna Kingsford was elected president first of the London T. S. Lodge on 7th January 1883; “Isis Unveiled” was published in 1877, and the Third volume of the “Secret Doctrine” was published in 1897, after her death.”
There is a lot more about occult numerology on this site, and elsewhere.
Interesting story-I immersed myself last fall in studying about the occult, numerology and sacred geometry including the meanings of 33, 300, 7, 666 etc. We all know how the occultists love their phallic symbols as well. At the time, I was enrolled in an anatomy class and I was dissecting a rat. (I am a nurse, furthering my education). The instructions read, “cut through to expose the penis, it is shaped like a 7.” I was stunned, and looked over the page to see who published the manual, and I looked down at the page number and it was page 33. I also want to add that the entire pathway from the semeniferous tubules to the tip of the penis is shaped just like the memorial ribbon we see on the back of so many cars, whether it be for breast cancer or our troops etc. I don’t think this is a coincidence.
Christine Lagarde’s speech is just another example of how all of this is in plain sight, if you only question and dig a little.
Another bit of numerological weirdness and date coincidence is, of course, to TWA flight 800 downed by military missiles off Long Island on July 17, 1996.
Flt 800, too, provides additional template for patterned official disinformation practices, intimidation of eye witnesses and perhaps over 1k naval personnel, as well as NTSB and FBI being iced from engaging standard investigative protocols. As blatant as it gets.
So, this incident looks textbook. But to what ends for creating such recklessly lethal and dramatically exploitable distraction, ..or pretext?
Can anyone come up with a good motive for Putin or the Separatists to do this? Every act has a motive behind it. I am sure we can come up with some good ones for the US and Ukraine puppet government, but how could Russia possibly use this to their advantage?
To have carried this horrible act out and PROVE it was done by the Ukrainian Military would be extremely damaging to the Ukrainian Government and US.
I would think they could alter the black box recordings but some sites are reporting they are being turned over to an international body.
This event is getting more convoluted as time goes on.
The way I see the big picture is, I don’t believe Russia is our enemy. I think the powers that shouldn’t be in the US and the world are working together like good cop and bad cop to feed the military industry and create total chaos, division, destruction and fear. This way they can offer up a lovely solution to all of these problems like racism, homophobia, women’s educational and reproductive rights, immigration, violence. This solution will be a socialist totalitarian one world government with communitarian law (sounds much prettier than communism) and one religion (looks like it might be B’hai)and one currency. So, it’s easier to see how we may actually strive to be like Russia when you read the Anti-Communitarian Manifesto (if you can actually get a copy)and Behind the Green Mask. This is the Hegelian Dialectic.
I absolutely agree with you on this point. In George Orwell’s 1984 there are 3 major power blocks that divide the world. Nobody ever seems to know if they are allied or at war with the other blocks. The narrative is constantly changing and history is changed accordingly, which is the protagonists job.
The only goals here is to perpetuate the conflict and struggle mode that mankind is in. Divide and Conquer politics on global scale. The powers that shouldn’t be are not at war with each other, they are at war with humanity.
Regarding the flight path, reports in the The New Indian Express (http://www.newindianexpress.com/world/MH17-Veered-Off-Course-to-Avoid-Storms-Report/2014/07/20/article2340376.ece) and New Zealand Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11296558&), and elsewhere, say MH17 diverted north of its usual flight path in hopes of avoiding storms. According to the former source “Nico Voorbach, a pilot who flew the same journey earlier this summer for KLM, and who is president of the European Cockpit Association,said ‘”I heard that they were diverting from some showers. I think there were thunderclouds. You would ask air traffic control to divert left or right, and they would give you the permission…'”
I believe the ‘missing’ MLY flight was diverted to the BIOT (Diego Garcia) and retro-fitted there for remote control and destruction over Ukrainian airspace as a false flag operation. If we connect the dots, it’s not hard to figure out. Putin tours South America, BRIC countries openly discussing an alternative to the IMF, discussions to get rid of the Petro Dollar and the USD as a reserve currency, the impending collapse of the US economy and the fiat money system… Nearly every tragedy, ‘attack’, war or other similar event can be traced back to the banking empire and the elite bloodline. Why should this be any different?
I am leaning towards this viewpoint. We need a lot more information/evidence though. I can’t get past the “pre-dead” passengers (according to frontline witnesses). In one video I watched a little old lady in the village had a body crash through her ceiling and land on her kitchen floor. The camera showed it. Her son said that the body “had no blood” and appeared to have been dead for some time.
This fits with the (albeit disgusting) scenario where the perps who hijacked MH370 took it to Diego Garcia (where I have believed it was taken) and put the already dead passengers “on ice” they then re-fitted the plane (or used the double that was in a hangar in Tel Aviv) and put the bodies in the cargo bay. They flew the plane to Schiphol, in Amsterdam where it became MH17 (apparently “another MH17) flew out of Schiphol within 24 hours of the first one). Live passengers were loaded onto MH17…so it contained a combination of live passengers and dead ones (in the cargo hold). I believe two Kiev jet fighters (possibly piloted by foreign pilots) shot down the plane. I do not think it was taken down by a BUK missile.
Why was this done?
a) distract from Gaza Invasion
b) try to brand the Novorussians as “terrorists” so NATO could join the frey
c) serve as a warning to Putin, whose plane was in the air in the same general vicinity at the time the plane went down. Putin was, in fact, talking to Obama when he got the news and told Obama. Perhaps, given that scenario…it was a warning to both of them to do what the perps want…or else.
Here is my website which I did not link on my introduction:
http://greencrowasthecrowflies.blogspot.ca/
As you will see I already have a post about MH17. BTW, I recently returned from a trip to Russia and was very impressed with the country and the people. Anyone who thinks they would be pushovers in a war would be absolutely stupid.
Enjoyed browsing your site, greencrow. Your compilation of ideas does indeed resonate irrespective of whether absolutely nailing all details in conjecture towards a whole. How could one possibly hope to put it all seamlessly together?
Nevertheless, where you’ve arrived as expressed in all its ragged complexity is as proximate, in all probability, as one may reasonably get to the right track in observing this dialectic in acton, in my most humble and ever evolving view.
As to the broad consequences of our unwitting participation in this matrix of madness, you also sense an inevitability for your part within it. I agree with that, too, as being necessity, at some not too distant point, simply to rebalance naturally in quiet contemplation.
One standard historical general feature of these circumstantial orchestrations of extreme social stressing is the sudden pulling out of the rug. In our contemporary case it would very likely include this medium once its usefulness as means to control is spent and manifests more as liability. Instances of organized political resistance, as in Egypt, comes to mind as a downside example, however much a manipulation that in itself was. And, however hopeless strictly political solutions in actuality are.
Be that as it may, I just wanted to acknowledge your perspective as shared and appreciated. For what it’s worth, despite all our uncertainty and angst for the fate of mankind, I have it intuitively that we need most to maintain integrity in whatever we think or imagine. It’s what accounts for James’ success here in nuclear dynamic of attraction. Sensibility, intelligence and good will?
Or, maybe it’s just a new brotherhood of the beard, who knows?
A couple of good authors which I believe James has perhaps mentioned in his previous podcasts – I’ll mention them here if anyone’s interested in checking them out. David Icke and Pierre Sabak. Pretty heavy stuff, but I believe the subscribers here are accustomed to the truth.
Thanks to everyone – most especially James – for all the hard work and the brilliant discussions to enlighten and wake up the world.
I have a great respect for David Icke. He opened my eyes to a lot of possibilities in this world. He is absolutely fearless about the truth. His website is a gem.
Hey James:
This forum is great the way you set it up. One of the best formats I’ve experienced. Now, if I could only load up my little greencrow icon onto my tagline : )
Check out gravitar if you want to get your greencrow icon up and running. That’s what I used for my icon and it works a ton of places without having to do anything.
Icons can be added via gravatar.com. Just click on “Create your own gravatar” from their homepage.
Technology terrifies me. :/
It doesn’t look half bad on you though;)
The idea that the plane was intentionally shot down by separatists or the Russians directly for that matter seems pretty ludicrous as far as I’m concerned. The part I don’t get is why the separatists tampered with evidence at the crash site, particularly the bodies, considering the obvious implications of doing so. It’s possible that there’s been some reasonable analysis of this aspect, but I haven’t come across it yet. Someone let me know if it’s already been addressed and I’m just missing it.
I know James added the notification feature (thanks:), but I’m not seeing the option. Under the “Submit Comment” button and the number of characters available (which doesn’t seem to apply), there’s a little bit of text which says “If A New Comment Is Posted:” with “Do Not Send Email Notifications.” underneath, but there’s nothing to select which I can see and I didn’t last post. If anybody has a suggestion I’d appreciate it. Thanks~B
Click directly on “Do not send email notifications” and it should give you a list of options, including “Send email notifications only if someone replies to my comments”
not sure in anyone else has noticed but the so-called smoke trail leading to the explosion is actually off to the side so cannot be anything to do with it.
Oh, nice. I didn’t realize that text was selectable. Thanks James.
Here’s an interesting piece of evidence:
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/19/flight-mh17-conjures-mh370-exposing-western-deception-leading-to-more-questions/
There is a screen shot of the flight list showing MH17 as being cancelled. I am starting to think that the evil doers were operating out of Schiphol. I have read a few nasty things about Schiphol and even got lost in the complex once. Apparently is a hub for drug running, etc.
Oh, and the CBC has a new report on the crash
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-missile-s-lack-of-radar-may-have-led-to-tragic-mistake-1.2712652
which appears to be a CYA in case the investigation shows Kiev guilty. CBC being just a mouthpiece, it looks as if the PTB are reading the tea leaves and have found humanity will not swallow their latest false flag pill. One thing about them…they know when to “hold em and know when to fold em”. That is one of the secrets to their survival….they never give up…they just morph.
Schiphol is a shady place indeed. When the El Al boeing crashed on Amsterdam in 1992, it turned out that the plane was loaded on a fenced off area on Schiphol airport that is officially Israeli territory. No one can go in without clearance from Israeli authorities. It is speculated that this area is used for weapon transports from the US. Of course men in white suits were seen at the crash site.
About drug running? Well, just look up ‘IRT affaire’ and the death of Maarten van Traa. He was president of a Dutch parliamentary commission that investigated drug running by Dutch authorities. Under the cover of ‘investigative methods’ hundreds of tonnes of drugs were smuggled through Schiphol airport. The commission delved a bit too deep and was disbanded. Maarten van Traa died the same year in a tragic car crash.
Great info, thanks!
gc
In this video Ukraine’s Security Service (SBU), Counterintelligence Department head Vitaliy Nayda presents ‘evidence’ of Russian BUK M-1 systems used to shoot down flight MH17.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWtH8AA42Fc
Around 4:15 into this video photographic evidence is shown of BUK missile systems allegedly being ordered back across the Russian border.
The photograph in question is this one in better quality:
http://i.imgur.com/QKHjQz4.jpg
None of the news services are carrying this photo, which is odd cause it actually reveals a designator on the side of it ‘312’
Here is a video of BUK 312 (third in line) from March 5th, comments on the video report it is filmed near “Soledar, Donetsk region”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj-VZB0ZdEA
The BUK systems as they appear in that video 323, 321, 312, 301, 331, & 332
Video of BUK 332 from MArch 5th, description says “In Artem area was observed movement of military equipment. Through Razdolovku by Yakovlevka hastily proceeded 8 cars antiaircraft missile systems ‘Buk'”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGYfFeGRh90
Image of BUK 321, allegedly taken July 4th being manuvered by Ukranian Gov’t forces:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=54f_1405644748
BUKs allegedly captured from unit A-1402, BUK 103 and 122, end of June:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Frusvesna.su%2Fnews%2F1404041521&edit-text=&act=url
So yeah not sure if this leads anywhere, but it at least APPEARS that, the BUK units being shown as evidence are either still in possession of Ukrainian forces or have been captured. Thoughts?
Both sides have BUK systems, so nothing can be concluded from the fact that the plane was brought down by a BUK. We need satellite images to know who fired the rocket. I’m pretty sure both sides have these images. This is a war zone and the eyes in the sky are definitely watching.
I’m not convinced a rocket took the plane down, it might have been a fighter or a bomb or even an autopilot crashing into the ground.
Hi all, this is interesting. Of course there was a drill happening at the same time … http://m.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/21/mh-17-beware-of-the-chameleon.html
This is an excellent point, as is often the case with government sponsored false flag terrorism, especially of the US/NATO variety. I recall Dr. Webster Tarpley’s excellent analysis regarding 9/11 and the military drills/exercises that were used as “cover.” There is also a PDF that lists all of the exercises.
http://tarpley.net/2011/08/24/the-last-secret-of-911-truth/
There was a meme for virtually every aspect of 911. In the course of these military exercises, the drills are flipped live. The movie “Operation Valkyrie” with Tom Cruise, gives somewhat of an insight into how an officially sanctioned drill/exercise can be altered and redirected to serve another purpose and/or operation, without the chain of command ever finding out despite their watchful gaze.
Why would the Ukraine government deploy their surface-to-air missile when the rebels cannot and should have no intention to fly an aircraft?
and according to friends who living within the region, the government feel no guilt bombing their own civilians anyways.
Yesterdays No Agenda podcast (http://adam.curry.com/html/NoAgendaEpisode636Ap-1405886132.html) points to NATO exercising the exact type of electronic warfare mentioned earlier in this thread. Shownotes include source documents.
The interesting thing now is what Russia’s response will be in the coming days and weeks relating to the investigation of this incident. They undoubtedly will have the black boxes, and perhaps transport the wreckage to a secure location in Russia. They will be keen to release any condemning information or perhaps use it as blackmail to win certain favours.
Hi James:
Looks like my last comment is still “awaiting moderation:”
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
07/21/2014 at 11:43 am
Is that the case?
Ditto for me, maybe its because my post has a bunch of links in it.
Yes, posts with more than one link need approval before posting. More anti-spam measures.
Good article at Global Research: http://www.globalresearch.ca/flight-mh17-conjures-mh370-exposing-western-deception-was-it-a-staged-event/5392222
Not sure whether it’s been posted yet, but it contains one of the photos of luggage in suspiciously pristine condition, which I mentioned earlier. Ironically, it also includes passports in similarly pristine condition, which I’d stated in regards to the baggage as having reminded me of the passport for one of the alleged hijackers “found” in the wtc rubble.
The second major passenger airline disaster for Malaysian Airlines within months of each other? Somebody who has a major stake in that airline must have an extraordinary relationship with some very major geopolitical players. If so, whether or not it’s a ‘friends with benefits’ situation or one more closely resembling that of the ‘litigious ex-spouse’ variety probably has a significant backstory of its own, but I find the idea this is supposed to pass as a mere coincidence about as plausible as the explanations provided thus far for either incident. Meta-Conspiracy anybody?
Found this buried in the comments of a Zerohedge article. Worth putting in the mix…probably:
http://www.rense.com/general96/MH17.html
Yes I read that and do believe the investigation will lead back to Schiphol as I said in another comment. I saw a comment on YouTube that the Dutch prime minister’s “head is on the chopping block” over this.
It is premature to speculate what actually happened with MH17, and who was involved. without a doubt it was a conspiracy perpetuated by more than one person.
As with the MH370 that “vanished” without any trace, it apparently was last supposed to be in the general vicinity of Diego Garcia. An intense on-going search by several nations has been conducted with no assistance from the US that has complete surveillance and tracking facilities at Diego Garcia, as well as detailed satellite imagery. The main entities that suffered were China, Malaysian Airlines and Malaysia that were accused of incompetence. But who gained?
With MH17 the tragedy has not yet been investigated to any degree and additional information is coming in on a daily basis. Within hours of the disaster Obama stated with some certainty that that H17 was brought down by a surface to air missile, most likely a Russian Buk. What made him so certain, and what evidence did he have? Or did that revelation come to him while playing golf?
Later news indicated that victims rained from the sky and rumours circulated that some may have been in early stages of decomposition. One body was said to have crashed through the roof of a house and was almost unrecognizable. People on the ground are said to have heard a fighter jet fly away from the vicinity of the explosion. However, some baggage was in almost pristine condition and better shape than my baggage after airport handlers have been at it. Could anything have been planted in the baggage by anyone that was behind the whole thing? At about the same time a Kiev air controlled, the vanishing Carlos, released some information on flight tracking which may or may not be significant.
Today it was reported by RT that Russia had tracked MH17 on radar. It also tracked a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter jet in the vicinity that climbed suddenly towards MH14 and within easy attack position. At the same time Russia was tracking Buk missile batteries that the Ukrainian army was moving around in the vicinity.
The downing of MH17 almost on the heels of the vanishing MH370 is an incredible coincidence that is almost impossible to believe.
Who is likely to suffer from the downing of MH17? Obviously Malaysia and Malaysian Airlines. But also the anti-Kiev rebels whom the West and Ukraine are condemning.
Whoever will gain will be all those that want to escalate the Cold War, or even start a Hot Nuclear War, against Russia. The US military industrial complex and arms dealers will benefit most financially.
Around the time of the infamous “Nuland tape” Where she was conniving with Pyatt about successors to the ousted Ukrainian leader…there was another YouTube video that surfaced. I can’t remember all the details…but it was a secretly recorded conversation between two Kiev Junta military types. They were planning a false flag in eastern Ukraine. One said to the other words roughly to the effect: “You bring the men…I already have the plane pieces.”
Does anyone else remember this video? It caused a minor sensation at the time and was viral.
There was a YouTube which purported to be Turkish military discussing setting up a false flag operation in Syria. YouTube was banned in Turkey as a result. The video turned out to be a mish-mash of different conversations, but it did contain a phrase similar to your recollection.
Thanks for your response. No, I’m pretty sure the video I remember referred to Ukraine. I remember there was a map of Ukraine as one of the pieces to the video.
Just as an additional small piece of information about the numerical side of things (I am really not interested in numerology generally) the attack on the plane took place on the anniversary of the assassination of Tsar Nicholas 11 and his family, July 17, 1918. Having just returned from a trip to Russia and learning a bit about how Russians feel about their history…this IS significant. If they were attempting to assassinate Putin…this WAS a subliminal message.
gc
Do you wonder if the timeing of this puzzlement is orchestrated also to divert the world’s attention from the Genocide in Gaza? The recent bombing of Gaza began July 7th (also of numeralogical significance?).
This press conference with the Russian generals is freaking awesome.
http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/
So the bastards shot it down with an air to air missile.
And the Russians do not have any flight data on a ground to air missile.
Whoa.
So Obama flat out lied to the camera, or somebody flat out lied to him.
And once again, they were ready to start a major war, based on a lie.
How many times does this have to happen before the sheeple wake up?
Was this a second EU/US false flag operation?
The first was the coup in Kiev by armed thugs and sharpshooters. A democratically elected President and Parliament were ousted and replaced by interim figures, many of whom have links with ultra-right wing parties and organised crime. Their first act was to alienate the large Russian-speaking minority by withdrawing approval of Russian as an official language in Ukraine.
This operation required the aircraft to come down within rebel held territory and not disappear into Russia or the Black Sea. Therefore a false flag operation would require the establishment of what happens when a missile explodes near a Boeing 777 at some 40,000ft because in thin air the outcome is unpredictable.
The odds against two Malaysian airliners being shot down within four months of each other is extremely high: not only because of the close proximity in time, not only because it could have happened to any number of carriers over those flight areas and not only that both were Boeing 777.
Cameron delivered an almost immediate verdict on flight MH17 “this is an atrocity made in Moscow, the growing weight of evidence points to a clear conclusion: that flight MH17 was blown out of the sky by a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area.”
Was this haste by Cameron in order to get this thing put to bed before a proper investigation was conducted?
The lack of interest for a unbiased forensic investigation by the West is glaringly obvious as is the silence of the US about Malaysia Airlines Flight 370.
[NOTE: I am approving this this one time, but in the future please keep comments under 500 words. – Corbett]
This is beginning to look more and more like some nightmare conjured from CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, USA.
Ukraine dances to a tune played in Washington, so the attack on Donetsk would have to have been ordered from there. This is a really desperate move, so it is clear the US is determined to prevent the truth of this matter from being discovered. Artillery, or air strikes on the wreckage will hide the evidence of a bomb on board the plane (if there was one). You could not pay me enough to travel on that corpse train. Mofo’s bound to hit that sucker.
The flight was from Amsterdam. Schiphol Airport was involved in the ridiculous “underwear bomber†scam that was used to sell hundreds of millions of dollars worth of useless scanners at US airports ( Cui bono = Michael Chertoff).
Could there have been a bomb on the plane?
The Americans say that the plane was shot down by a surface to air missile, and the entire mainstream has been pushing the “Blame Putin†meme since the crash was first reported on Wednesday. The Russian military have released their radar and satellite data, they show no missile launch, but instead a military jet. If it was a Ukrainian Su-25 (not yet confirmed) then it could be equipped with missiles that would certainly hit a Boeing 777 at the range demonstrated.
So who is the murderer? There are four possibilities:
East Ukrainian Self defense forces (the rebels, terrorists, pro-Russian fighters – it is one group with many names). Extremely unlikely that they have the capability. They would need radar, which they definitely do not have, and the claims they have the BUK missiles are dubious. Even if they do have the missiles, they do not have the ability to target them, so hitting a jet travelling at 500 mph, 30,000 feet in the air, is inconceivable. The fact that the mainstream media has latched on to this meme, as if it is the only possible explanation, is suspicious in and of itself. Remember WMDs, and Assad “gassed his own people†(some of them are still using that despite its true nature having been discovered and widely understood). The mainstream do no investigations outside of what is permitted by their corporate masters, and the corporate masters want war, as they always do. The presence of a military jet means that missile launch scenarios are no longer relevant, unless and until the USA releases the images the definitely have from military satellites directly overhead as this incident unfolded.
Russia. Unlike the rebels, the Russians do have the equipment, and the expertise, to knock a passenger jet out of the sky. But why would they want to? The mainstream propose that Putin is evil, and that is all the motive they need. And I am sure there are people posting on web sites all over, laying out ways that evil Putin benefits from this event, but I cannot think of any motive. So the only way Russia could be the murderer is by accident. Accidents happen, sure. But that is a pretty unlikely scenario as well.
The government forces controlled by Kiev (the Ukrainian military, the soldiers of the fascist junta – another group with many names). They have the BUK missiles, but Russia has provided no training in their use for 23 years. Even with air traffic control obligingly making the target a bit easier to hit, they still have to get it close to the plane, so that the satellite data can be used to justify the missile theory. I don’t think that bunch of clowns in Kiev, or their make believe army, which was getting soundly beaten by the rebels, have the competence. Their pathetic fake videos are getting exposed as propaganda one after another. Their ham-handed suppression of air traffic control, followed by wiping of twitter account . These guys – no way can they be the source of a successful ground to air missile strike. An Su-25 – that they can do.
Somebody else. CIA?, MI6?, Mossad? There you have means, motive and opportunity.
If somebody, anybody at all, knew in advance that this plane was going down, then the finger of accusation has to point at the intelligence agencies. They would have to put a bomb on the plane to make sure it blew up if the ancient BUK missile failed in its first attempt to hit a plane since 2001. In 2001 the Ukrainian military “accidently†shot down a passenger plane over the Black Sea and lied about it for months. The Ukrainian military is a severely degraded institution, and the fact they managed to hit a plane with a Buk missile, by accident thirteen years ago, does not mean they can hit one on purpose today. They can still get their jets in the air, and heat seeking missiles do not have to be laser guided or radar targeted.
If the intelligence agencies were involved in creating this scary drama, then that would explain the passports, the rotting corpses devoid of blood, and the fake videos. The intelligence agencies have dirt on everyone, so they call the shots, tell the media what to print, and generally do whatever the hell they want, and nobody calls them on the carpet for it. They never get asked about anything they don’t want to talk about. It’s 911 all over again.
They have apparently decided to have a massive global war. That’s how they plan to deal with resource depletion, climate change, the coming collapse in food production, the zombie banks and the fake money. They plan to have a massive global conflagration, kill billions of people, and somehow survive themselves, on a depopulated planet, with a few thousand robots to do the work.
They may have already released the deadly pathogen that will wipe out hundreds of millions of people, and allow them to microchip everybody else with the vaccine. The ones with useful skills will get the vaccine, the chip, and a life of slavery, with just enough creature comforts to enable them to be productive. Of the rest, the ones that don’t die in the famines, the nuclear power plant meltdowns, the collapse of the infrastructure, the wars and the pestilence, will be taken out by drones. The Tom Cruise movie Oblivion predicts exactly that. Except in that movie, the bad guys are aliens, not the 0.1%, who may, actually, be aliens, if David Icke is to be believed.
One of them thar sock puppets posted a bunch of drizzle on my Fakebook page (serves me right for having one, I guess). Anyway since this is obviously a cut and paste job, I thought I let you guys have my responses which you may find handy if this claptrap shows up in your social media feed.
He refers to Flight MH17 as MH317 throughout.
Oooh whopp dee doo, an out of date cut and paste job.
The Wikipedia entry for the Su-25 has certainly been modified. The manufacturer’s website – not so easy to distort.
1) MH317 was traveling at 33,000 feet.
2) The Su-25’s is a ground attack jet with an altitude ceiling is 23,000 feet.
This is bullshit. As can be seen here, (http://www.military-today.com/aircraft/sukhoi_su25_frogfoot.htm) the service ceiling is 10 km, 10,000 meters, or 32,808.4 feet.
3) The Su-25 carries a single tiny AA missile incapable of air-to-air attacks.
You are making this too easy. The Su-25 can carry R-27R, R-77 and R-73 air-to-air missiles
4) The speed of a 777 at that altitude would outrun a SU-25
Probably, but they were heading towards each other, so that’s not exactly relevant is it? And it’s the speed of the missile that matters. I would look them up for you, but since I have already completely demolished your bullshit, I can’t be bothered.
5) There was no comms from MH317 saying it was being trailed.
The frogfoot was in front.
6) Someone from a Kremlin IP has been editing Wikipedia to increase the Su-25 ceiling.
Oooh. So someone from the country that manufactures that airplane is trying to correct the misinformation provided to suckers like you.
So far your entire argument is based on fake data from Wikipedia. Nice try fool. Now get lost.
BINGO!
I found the information on the proposed false flag in Ukraine:
http://journal-neo.org/2014/03/15/8929/
What I saw on YouTube was based on this report but also had secretly recorded conversations between the parties.
Found interesting post with analysis on possible MH17 attack with “air-to-air†missiles. The analysis is based on pictures showing MH17 wing riddled by shrapnel. The post is in Russian but you can use google translator and I can help to clarify if any confusions with translation:
http://politikus.ru/events/24997-ustanovlena-traektoriya-rakety-vozduh-vozduh-vypuschennoy-po-malayzyskomu-boingu.html
Pls note: special warhead is used in aircraft missiles designed specifically for aerial targets. It has a beam of pointed rods (sometimes welded together, sometimes not). When missile gets close to the target, warhead explodes and this beam of rods almost at the cosmic speed hits the target. On contact, kinetics of the rod is such that it can split in half titanium spar. The warhead has another advantage – missile does not require absolute precision as it explodes before it reaches the target. If 2-3% of these rods hit the target, the plane is doomed.
“Reference is made to military operations using combat aircraft from the Ukrainian military. Who is being attacked? Under what authority are these attacks being staged?”
That gun be smokin’
I would like to point out why this planecrash most likely was a staged event besides all technical evidence or indications. Most important of all questions regarding this presumption should obviously be: Why would they do it?
The whole MH17 story is a nice twist to distract from the actual ongoing operations on the ground in eastern Ukraine. The “Anti-Terror-Operation” has already become classical civil-war. The Junta in Kiew disposes of both largest obstacles to sustaining their power: the nonconformist people of Donbass, Donezk & region on the one hand and all of the young yet-to-become opposition forces in their own homeland on the other. This is a huge killing of Ukrainians on both sides of the war. Since this information is going to go viral within Ukraine (rather sooner than later), the regime is in urgent need of support from warmongers outside it’s own borders.
Also, there are some striking similarities to the american mainstream tv-show LOST, wherein a plane gets lost to later be found in a fake (staged) ocean crash. Another plane (later in the series) gets dumped forcefully on a targeted crash site (“the island”). It is of great importance to the plot that both planes contain a dead body in the storage department. The second flight starts from a U.S. military base in the indian ocean/pacific (I’m not sure if Guam is correct, that’s what I remember). Also there is a strong theme of “numbers” throughout the entire series. Odd similarities to be purely coincidental.
Maybe this has to be understood as an intended hint to the scripted nature of the unfolding events around this new “hot cold war” of our current time?
Anyone see this piece out today?
http://www.tatoott1009.com/2014/07/20/mh17-plane-engines-completely-the-wrong-size-comparison-pictures-reveal-the-truth-your-opinion-please/
It seems beyond belief but the size of the engines on a 777 seem much larger then what we see in the debris field attributed to MH 17. While the perspective may be off due to the differing size of many of the components within the overall assembly, I’ve yet to see any picture showing a forward fan blade unit of anywhere close to the size of a 777.
There are reports that the actual flight MH 17 was cancelled. Is it possible that they would set up a false flag and not use comparable engine sizes? I’ve heard they screwed up with these details on 911 but such a mistake (if it were made) would surely suggest that the bulk of the planning was done by parties unfamiliar with the different models of aircraft.
My suggestion to the Malaysian government would be to bundle both the MH17 and MH370 investigations into one. That way, they can have the same team of experts look at both disasters and come up with probable causes. The truly international team of investigators will have the right of subpoena and can subpoena all documents from Kiev, Russia, Thailand and The United States.
MH370 was never investigated and, IMO, this will be the last opportunity to do justice to the victims of that disaster.
I think there are a couple points to consider here:
1) I think James’ excellent piece on MH370 http://www.corbettreport.com/how-to-steal-an-airplane-from-911-to-mh370/ is worth revisiting. The idea of remote hijacking is not new and could be used to explain how MH17 “veered off course” into what was supposedly declared a “No Fly Zone” by the Kiev fascist government on July 8. So why was the plane where it should not have been?
2) Although we do not have the resources to undertake this investigation, a fruitful line of inquiry is whether the MH17 plane is actually the hijacked MH370 plane, retrofitted and re-purposed. It certainly would not be outside the realm of possibility, given the stranger things our investigations into the truth have revealed.
3) I think the occult/numerology references by Madamme Lagarde are interesting and captivating, but not entirely convincing. Although I wouldn’t ascribe too much weight into the numbers themselves, after watching her speech in the link, I was taken by her reference to the “G7,” before Russia was kicked out of the “G8.” Certainly an insider, or part of the “adept” if you want to consider occult language, she would be privy to certain information that the “profane” would not.
4) Ukraine is definitely a big piece in the chessboard, as noted by Brzezinski himself in “The Grand Chessboard.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-eurasian-chessboard-brzezinski-mapped-out-the-battle-for-ukraine-in-1997/5373707
We must remember, these people – Brzezinski, Lagarde, etc. – are all insiders with insider knowledge of things before they unfurl, often years in advance of their agenda.
5) The timing and link of this false flag operation during the announcement of the BRICS Bank in Forteleza, and Israel’s attack on Gaza should also be considered. It’s also potentially being set up as a bankster/oil vs. natural gas turf war between the old powers vs. the new.
This report in the China Times seems to have been totally ignored in the media coverage of flight MN370. It is still available on line and includes a map of where oil and debris was found
Google Translation
“Gui Feng Wang reported at 20:25 on March 8
According to the U.S. CN reports, one of Vietnam rescue aircraft have discovered oil and debris in Malaysia and Vietnam at the junction of the sea. (From Wenhui Network)
Malaysia Airlines passenger plane lost contact, Malaysia, China, Vietnam, the Philippines, Indonesia and other five countries involved in search and rescue. Malaysia, Vietnam, flew lock may have lost contact with the sea search. According to the U.S. Cable News Network (CNN) reported that instant, one of Vietnam rescue aircraft have discovered oil and debris in Malaysia and Vietnam at the junction of the sea.
In addition, the U.S. Embassy said the 2:43 U.S. military bases stationed in Thailand U-Tapao SOS signal was listening to some of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 emergency call, said the aircraft cabin facing disintegration driver call, they want a forced landing . U.S. troops are currently stationed in Thailand, Malaysia has been providing this signal”
http://www.chinatimes.com/realtimenews/20140308003502-260401
Hi malshy,
yes it is worthwhile to consider initial reports of major incidents and watch how the story sometimes gets redirected. I came across this report you posted also in mid April .
Further to this information that, in my opinion points to a shoot down in the South China Sea , the was the obligatory drill going on at the same time as the false flag, this time it was Cobra Gold, the regular joint military excersise featuringThailand, US and some friendly SE asian countries. At the very least they had AWACS in the skies monitoring all communications and radar in the area. At the worst they shot it down.
Then there is the first eye witness report. A worker stationed on an oil rig in the South China Sea immediately emailed his employer from the rig after seeing an explosion at altitude and a falling fiery trail of debris at the time MH370 was apparently doing U-turns and other aerial acrobatics to take the heat away from the oil slick crime scene.
New pics of crash site and they look good, done by professional:
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/
haha, there is a picture of an intact vinyl record in the wreckage debris?
There is maybe significant detail I’ve discovered when comparing the radar data published by the Russian department of defense on monday showing another B777-200 of the Singapore Airlines flight 351 Copenhagen-Singapore relatively closely following the MH17, while the flightaware.com tracking data show the plane out of the Ukrainian airspace. Pictures for idea what I’m talking about here: http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=22756&view=findpost&p=10813108
How is it possible the russian radar data show the SIA351 just behind the MH17, while the flightaware data put the SIA351 track far out of the Ukrainian airspace?
Could it be significant?
My reasoning is that if indeed the SIA351 was just the ~15nmi/<2min flight (roughly estimated from the russian radar) behind the MH17 as the russian long range radar visualisations published by the russian department of defense on monday strongly suggest the SIA351 pilots (and even passengers at the right side windows, because the plane was according to the russian radar coming at angle) well could have seen the shotdown or at very least observe the aftermath. Could it be that somebody tryies to mislead the investigation from the leads to the possible key wittnesses on the board of the SIA351 flight? But there is also other possibility: that the SIA351 trace at the flightaware.com is genuine. But then what is the plane at the russian radars identified as the SIA351 (and Russians explicitely stated it is SIA351 at the briefing – see: http://мультимедиа.минобороны.рф/multimedia/video/clips/more.htm?id=5088@morfVideoAudioFile – on monday)? I somehow don't see any reasonable motive for Russians why to fabricate the SIA351 or any other jetliner radar track at their radars.
Any suggestions?
Two things appear to be happening (in addition to the complete lack of response to legitimate questions). Media organs of the CIA mind control apparatus are now pushing the idea that the evil Russians are engaging in a ‘propaganda warâ€.
“(CNN) — In the tangled aftermath of the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 disaster, two narratives have emerged — one that most of the world subscribes to, and another that Russia and the rebels are pushing.â€
This idea that “most of the world subscribes to†the baseless accusations of the emperor is just another lie. Even those hopeless souls who comment on the CNN website are far more inclined to believe the evidence offered by the Russians than they are the hot air and bombast from the likes of Marie Harf-a-brain.
And the next thing is demonizing the people who do not blindly follow the lead of Washington/Langley.
“Don’t forget, the mentality of Russians is to think of conspiracy theories,” said Jill Dougherty. “So when they hear something that is outrageous, they might believe it.â€
So the evil Russians are trying to pollute the pure and innocent minds of special indispensable US Americans with their evil propaganda war, turning them into the dreaded “Conspiracy Theoristâ€, who should be mocked and laughed at by all regular people.
These tactics indicate that the die has been cast, and official Washington will never accept any narrative other than that on which they have already staked their credibility. They are on a one way street, a highway to hell, and no deviations will be permitted.
“We†are going to war, again.
Good post.
Pilots for 9/11 truth consider the possibility of this being a Ukrainian plot, but remember the US is their guide.
“I for now rather tend to think the whole shotdown was an intentional provocation to round up the rebels by cutting them from in my opinion quite legitimate support by Russia agaist the illegitimate government which wages war agains own citizens, the Russia which they could have been thinking would back off and cut them. I can’t imagine any motivation to shot down a civilian jetliner on the side of the rebels and I don’t even tend to believe they would do it by accident, nor Russia and I also can’t imagine the operators of a SAM system would not be able to discern a civilian target – that’s just utterly not believable given how the SAM radars work and that the plane according to the russian ARTCC data was transponding Mode3A and ModeC to the very end and very likely also the ModeS.
But this can be very dangerous game for provocators if they did (because if the Russians will get a comprehensive proof the plane was indeed shot down by the Ukrainians – as it now could look, because the Russian defense ministry officially came up with the proof the plane was way out of the civilian corridor,……”
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?s=29a7639add9febb99dd3a3d64cfce575&showtopic=22756&st=20&p=10813108&#entry10813108
My 2 cents. All information stated here is from the internet so as they say “Viewer Discretion Advised†or should I “Reader Belief Advisedâ€, especially as information on the internet, like magic dots, can change.
Adam Curry had and interesting take on the shoot down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flhi1k4iCPk&list=LLrqNrGjel1sGj5DOACOQPUg&index=1 His hypothesis was that the rebels had a Buk missile launcher and locked on to a target. However the target that they locked on to was the civilian plane, which had its radar signal turned off, and what they were seeing was a military jet radar hiding behind the commercial aircraft. He has a link to a German document http://adam.curry.com/enc/20140720012844_1801925hunkolinke.pdf which discusses the two outages at the beginning of June where some commercial aircraft disappeared from radar view.
From my understanding about the Buk Missile launcher is that is usually works with a suite of vehicles that can triangulate the radar. However this missile launcher can operate independently but would then not have the back up of additional radar information which would categorically indicate that it was a civilian plane.
As regards Jim Stone’s picture, the covered window does not prove anything as it does seem that prior to December 2012 9M-MRO had a window showing and then it gets covered. 9M-MRD also shows a window but when it was painted blue the window was covered http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/2964/9m-mrd-malaysia-airlines-boeing-777-200er/ and then there is another photograph of the same plane that is taken in May 2012 when it is back in Malaysian Airlines livery where the window is covered http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/431756/9m-mrd-malaysia-airlines-boeing-777-200er/
NATO exercises
http://m.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/04/04/nato-russia-arms-or-diplomacy-choice-i.html and http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/21/mh-17-beware-of-the-chameleon.html Operation Sea Breeze which was a 10 day NATO exercise in July
Looting and No Looting
There is one side saying there was no looting but the other side says there was. Vice News had a film of people chopping up a plane and carting it away https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNXf_HncM20&list=UUZaT_X_mc0BI-djXOlfhqWQ at the 3:20 mark. but then they had done the same with the previous aircraft shot down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRcMD9i8InE&list=UUZaT_X_mc0BI-djXOlfhqWQ at the 2 min mark. This is a war zone after all.
MH17, will be ever get to the truth, most probably unlikely. But the truth is certainly not the first version we were told.
Senior U.S. officials now admit that the Malaysian airlines passenger plane was likely accidentally shot down. (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/senior-u-s-intelligence-official-likely-explanation-plane-shot-mistake.html)
Looks like the Pentagon is monitoring social media, and refining their message, so that it stays close to what they think they can get away with. Interestingly, my Facebook feed has not carried a single status report from anyone (other than me) that refers to the incident in Ukraine. Strange that.
Here is an interesting angle. Let me know if you think there is any validity to it.
http://jimstonefreelance.com/
Jim Stone has examined file photos of the two jets MH17 and MH370 and also photos of the crash debris. He says that the debris belongs to MH370. This goes with my wild theory (which even I am skeptical of) …that the perps trucked in parts of MH370 together with some bodies and blew it up timed with the crash. I know, I know….
https://news.vice.com/video/exclusive-footage-of-mh17-aftermath-russian-roulette-dispatch-60
Vice has been supporting the agenda coming out of Kiev throughout this conflict, so no surprise that this report includes an uncontested mountain of bullshit from some military person from Kiev. However, there are lots of clear images of bodies, and there is very little blood to be seen. One of the Ukrainians interviewed looks like he is dealing with a very bad smell when he uncovers one of the bodies.
I have not yet found video of the bodies being loaded onto the train, which supposedly has “everybody†gagging at the stench. I will post a link if I find anything.
MH370 – that would just be insane. There are hundreds of numbered parts on airplanes, and there are records of which parts were installed in each plane. Paint job is not convincing – we need serial numbers. Even the CIA are too smart to risk blowing their cover that way on TWO civilian massacres.
I came across the Jim Stone page also and the theory was too interesting to ignore. However, doing a quick Google search appears to rubbish the “missing window” photographic argument.
9m-mrd = mh17 = apparently always UNCOVERED window under the flag
9m-mro = mh370 = apparently always COVERED window under the flag
But this image of the mh370 shows the window uncovered:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:268aq_-_Malaysia_Airlines_Boeing_777-2H6ER;_9M-MRO@ZRH;07.12.2003_(6328910764).jpg
Having said that, the fact that both planes in recent incidents were Malaysian and 777s, is just too weird for me considering the very-very-much-likely-staged-circumstances surrounding both incidents. There is another story in the “coincidence”.
There are lots of debates going whether Ukrainian army or pro-russian separatists pulled the trigger on soviet Buk surface-to-air missile system to shoot MH17. After digging more deeper into the subject, I’m not so sure now if it was the Buk that actually shot the plane down.
Here is my thinking:
1. Ukraine secret service confiscated records from the air traffic control centre. Releasing tape recording between air traffic controller and the pilot seems such an obvious step that could provide immediate evidence on what was going on in the pilot cabin at the time of the crash. I’m puzzled why this has not been done to this day? So much talks about finding the black boxes and who holds them, but I don’t hear much about tapes from air traffic control centre that should be available for investigation from day one. Where is the pressure on Ukraine to release them? Why MSM channels ignore this to address?
2. From the beginning Ukraine has claimed there were no military jets in the air at the time of the crash. This has been refuted by Russian military in the recent conference based on radar surveillance records. Neither Ukraine nor US has challenged or confirmed the fact of military jet flying in the commercial air corridor in close proximity of the plane.
3. Just before been shot MH17 suddenly deviated from it’s route and reduced it’s height – was pilot directed by the traffic controller or has been forced by escorting jet? Where is the traffic controller who was guiding the plane? Apparently Ukraine is not in a hurry to answer those questions.
4. Russian defence system detected surveillance of american satellite just above the area of the crash. This new space surveillance system is designed to detect rocket launch systems and its activities. Why US has not released images with Buk system in action?
5. Some details on how Buk missile works. It’s very hard to miss when Buk missile is launched. First of all it’s makes very loud sound that can be heard for miles. Second, there should be a trail of the thick white cloud following missile trajectory which stays for some time after the launch. Buk missile is designed to hit the target from above therefore the long white cloud trail would look like a hanging hook at the end. This was not observed at the scene.
I expect fierce info battle in following days wether surface-to-air or air-to-air system was used in downing the plane, which could be avoided provided Ukraine releases air traffic control data. But again, any delay appears very suspicious and works against their credibility.
Good video, although the narration is not as good as James : ]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmQ_4pf9hV8
Remember last year story re two rockets fired in mediterranean sea towards Syria as part of “American-Israeli drill”? Missiles were detected by the ballistic missile early warning system in Armavir in southern Russia immediately after the start and were “self-destructed” before reaching the shore: http://rt.com/news/ballistic-launch-eastern-mediterranean-343/
Probability that Russians don’t have more details on how MH17 was shot is almost zero. The rumour is the Russian military specialists were at the crash site about three or four hours after the crash and were convinced that investigation results will be unequivocal.
When Ukraine exhausts their nonsense stories, they may reveal more information from intercepted communications between ukranian jet and Malaysian plane and other info including analysis of cellular activity + negotiations of individual “citizens” with the ability to accurately determine the location of the speaking subject, but not before AAIB report is released. Some negotiations behind the scenes may be already underway – you may already noticed a sudden change in narrative within past 24 hr. amongst MSM channels.
Press TV is reporting that MH17 likely brought down by US stinger missile.
Makes sense to me as I have already deduced probable air to air.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/24/372544/us-stinger-possibly-destroyed-mh17/
Read the end paragraph where they say there was a US think tank plan revealed weeks ago outlining what is now going on.
In spite of the obvious biased views of some news reporting agencies I still like to believe that the bulk of the enormous amount of conflicting information currently circulating was never deliberately intended by the bulk of those authors to create deliberate confusion (perhaps I’m a dreamer) but I think rather that the current misinformation & conflicting reports stem from the modern information age in which we live where hundreds of news items, opinions, images & audio from anybody are instantly available to anyone with an internet connection. And all of these can be & often are modified with a few mouse clicks as new info comes to hand. In order to stay ahead of the pack & keep their jobs some reporters in the MSM are forced to make sacrifices & the authenticity of source information seems to be the first casualty. Take for example the widely reported concerns over MH17’s flight path in this article. There are inconsistencies between the flight paths in the Map in this article & those which can still be obtained from the flight aware site itself – http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history, please have a look yourselves. On the 9th,10th,11th,12th,14th, 15th, 16th July (according to the site I looked at again just now ) the flight paths over the Ukraine are the same as that taken on the 17th July, there was a slight deviation south on the 13th July. So unless flight aware have gone back & changed these earlier flight paths to be the same as that of the 17th (which is possible I guess) I think it would be fair to say the map in this article is quite misleading & perhaps the plane was on its intended flight path after all.
With regards Stalkers point in 1 above (post of 5.22am) I agree that the tape recording (if there is one) between the Ukraine air traffic controller and the pilot is such an obvious & pivotal part of this investigation & I am equally baffled as why no one appears to be taking about it.
An Aviation Expert said so:
“Crashed MH17 flight ‘was 300 miles off typical course’
MH17 flight feared to have been shot down over Ukraine was taking a significantly different route to the usual course for flights from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, according to aviation expert”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975524/Crashed-MH17-flight-was-300-miles-off-typical-course.html
in the article you quote Malshy it also states “Records of recent MH17 flights on the FlightAware appear to bear out Mr Mark’s claim, with earlier flights significantly further south than the flight that crashed” please have a look at the site aware for yourself – you’ll see that the statement above is simply not true.
I came across a few posts reporting flightaware data been tampered. Here is one of them http://www.theeventchronicle.com/intel/jim-stone-info-mh17/ – look for Dario comment.
that’s a whopper of a read – where specifically in all of that are the tampering reports? & also do you have the links to the other posts you came across reporting the same?
I guess I am a dreamer then after all, the largest flight tracking website in the world, FlightAware.com are also in on the scam,
To casual observer
Note that on April 11 the flight path depicted by FlightAware was some 400 miles to the south. The reason for that I wonder.
Apparently, the MH17 black boxes are headed for the UK to be “analyzed” by AAIB experts. I was under the impression that the “rebels” handed over the black boxes to Malaysian authorities. How many “black boxes” are we talking about here? Something’s not right, unless the Malaysian authorities then handed them over to the Dutch, who then handed them over to the UK.
Both black boxes are being analyzed.
Like you said: the “rebels†handed over the black boxes to Malaysian authorities .
“Early on Tuesday, senior separatist leader Aleksander Borodai handed over the black boxes in the city of Donetsk.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/us-ukraine-crisis-airplane-idUSKBN0FQ0K420140721
Later that day the Dutch Board of Safety recieved the black boxes and transported them to the UK to be analysed where they arrived on 23 july.
http://onderzoeksraad.nl/nl/onderzoek/2048/onderzoek-crash-mh17-17-juli-2014/onderzoek/1544/gegevens-cockpit-voice-recorder-mh17-uitgelezen
A thorough OS investigation has been done here which answers the question about the timestamp issue of the video that was released by Ukraine:
https://gist.github.com/klaufir/d1e694c064322a7fbc15
I’m posting this from the website of Belgian journalist (Michel Collon). The piece is originally in French, so bear with the web translation in certain parts.
Why am i posting this ? Because i think that all, if not nearly all political events are linked in some way or another. As with 9-11, after several years i lost interest in the ‘whodunnit’ details, ranging from Nano-Thermite to the Mossad… you know what i’m getting at.
Anyway, this piece for me starts to connect the dots between Gaza and MH17, and of course the New American Century chessboard plan.
Maybe its off topic, but nonetheless worth the share.
PS> I might have to post the piece in 2 parts due to the limitation of characters.
“To understand what is one reason for the Israeli attack against Gaza must go deep, just 600 meters below sea level, 30 km off its coast. There, in Palestinian territorial waters, there is a large natural gas field, Gaza Marine, estimated at 30 billion cubic meters worth billions of dollars. Other deposits of oil and gas, according to a map prepared by the U.S. Geological Survey, are on firm ground in Gaza and the West Bank.
In 1999, with an agreement signed by Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian Authority says the Gaza Marine operating a consortium of British and Consolidated Contractors Group (Palestinian private company), with 60% and 30% shares respectively, wherein investment Fund of the Palestinian Authority has a percentage of 10%. Two wells are drilled, Gaza Marine-1 and Gaza Marine-2. But they never come on, as blocked by Israel, which wants all the gas discount prices. Through the former Prime Minister Tony Blair, the envoy of the “Quartet for the Middle East” is prepared an agreement with Israel deprives Palestinians three quarters of future gas revenues, by paying their share of international account controlled by Washington and London. But, immediately after winning the 2006 elections, Hamas refuses the agreement, calling it theft, and request renegotiation. In 2007, the current Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon said that “the gas can not be extracted without a military operation that eradicates the control of Hamas in Gaza.”
part 2 :
“In 2008, Israel launched “Operation Cast Lead” against Gaza. In September 2012 the Palestinian Authority announced that, despite the opposition of Hamas, she resumed negotiations on gas with Israel. Two months after the admission of Palestine to the UN as a “non-member observer state” strengthens the position of the Palestinian Authority in the negotiations. However Gaza Marine stuck, preventing Palestinians from exploiting the natural wealth they have. At this point the Palestinian Authority take a different path. January 23, 2O14, at the meeting of Palestinian President Abbas with Russian President Putin has discussed the possibility of entrusting the operation of Russia’s Gazprom gas field in the waters of Gaza. It’s Itar-Tass news agency that the announcement, noting that Russia and Palestine agree to strengthen cooperation in the energy sector. In this context, in addition to the operation of the gas field, it is expected that an oil field in the vicinity of the Palestinian city of Ramallah in the West Bank. In the same area, the Russian Technopromexport is ready to participate in the construction of a thermoelectric site of a power of 200 MW. The formation of the new Palestinian government of national unity, June 2, 2014, strengthens the possibility that the agreement between Palestine and Russia reach safely. Ten days later, on June 12, occurs the kidnapping of three young Israelis who are found killed June 30: punctual casus belli that initiates the operation against Gaza “protective barrier”. Operation between the strategy of Tel Aviv, to also capture energy reserves of the entire Levant, Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian reserves included Basin, and in that of Washington in supporting Israel seeks control throughout the Middle East, preventing Russia to reacquire influence in the region.”
This is quite significant as a motive for Gaza and for the vilification of Putin using MH17.
Bodies ‘not fresh’ and ‘drained of blood’ == Nope.
When a plane depressurizes at 32,000 feet, anybody not properly strapped in would be sucked out of the aircraft.
From that height, the bodies would be frozen as they fell, so they would turn blue, and their blood would not be very liquid, so there should be very much less blood than if the body had fallen only a few hundred feet.
I think this explains reports of ‘bodies drained of blood’ and the blue color might suggest a corpse that had been dead for a while, so that would explain bodies not being “fresh”, also.
This is the simplest explanation that fits the known facts.
I think we need a lot more evidence on this before factoring it in or out. I think the country people of Ukraine may know a lot more about biological aspects of death than we do (being farmers). If they say something is not right…I give credence to that. One thing that concerns me is Russia has a history of not speaking out about obvious false flags…I can use 9/11 as just one example. Putin goes along with the official version although Russia must know a lot due to military satellite systems, spy intelligence, etc. I believe Russia just doesn’t want to become the whipping boy by telling unnecessary truths—if it doesn’t have to.
That being said…they have a dog in this race so they have to speak out about MH17. But don’t be surprised if some under the table deal (aka blackmail) is made and the entire atrocity is swept under the carpet.
I remember reading somewhere that Russia had evidence about the “lunar landing” but agreed to keep quiet about it in exchange for free wheat for a couple of years back when their crops were bad.
gc
This whole thing is being spun like a washing machine from both sides. But I still feel that like the Chemical attack in Syria, it was to be used to put NATO troops officially into the Ukraine. The casualties in the Ukraine army are fierce, they are also loosing equipment by the bucket load. No surprising as they are using conscripts who may have sympathy with the other side
To Greencrow,
Regarding Russia’s silence on false flags, I think you are right on 9-11. They know it, can prove it, but stay quiet. I think there are two possible reasons for this. First, the war on terror narrative suits the Kremlin who has many muslim breakaway regions they would like to keep in line and an international war on terror gives their actions legitimacy. Secondly, the series of apartment bombing blamed on Chechens during Putin’s rise to power was probably done by his buddies in the FSA, so open talk of false flags can put him under scrutiny also. This was before 9-11, maybe the US and Russians have agreed not to expose each others false flags so that this dirty type of warfare can continue to be used by both sides.
However, let’s not forget the Syria Sarin false flag was exposed by Putin. I don’t think he will allow a false flag to be used against him or his allies. Question is, does he consider the Donetsk Peoples Republic his ally? This is something I’m starting to doubt. His support so far has been very covert and nuanced and he may let them go altogether as part of some larger deal with the West.
Yep and the Vice News video had the bodies scattered across the countryside, in peoples houses and gardens
New version of what happend – comment posted today in ZeroHedge:
From Vladimir Suchan \
A fuller version of what happened starts emerging piece by piece. First, as I pointed out earlier, in one his daily battle reports, Strelkov or his associates indicated as if in passing that the Malaysian airliner, Boeing 777, was shot down by Ukrainian jet fighters. Then came the briefing by the Russian Ministry of Defense, which showed a Ukrainian SU-25 within 3-5 km from the Boeing at the very moment when the Boeing was hit. In the next four minutes, the Ukrainian fighter remained in the area. At the moment, when the Boeing was hit, it was also within the range of several Ukrainian Buk batteries, which were deployed close to Donetsk and then, just for that very day, 8km south of Shakhterskoye, which is also only several miles from the crash site.
Today (July 23), Anna-News published an interview with a Russian Air Force retired colonel Aleksand Zhilin who is a frequent military commentator on the conflict in Ukraine. The most important information is stated at 2:00-5:00 in the interview.
http://anna-news.info/node/18766
According to the colonel, at 16:19:45, a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades in the southern pocket by the Russian border.
When, however, the Boeing started to turn in the opposite direction and was still apparently manageable, “the US-Ukrainian headquarters of the special operation panicked and order the Buk battery to destroy the plane in the air in order to pre-empt the possibility of the Boeing’s emergency landing.” A Buk missile was fired and the plane was then finally destroyed.
The disclosure of the Russian electronic intelligence (in fact, only one part of it) on July 21 put the US against the wall. The existence of this intelligence and other data also means that the US cannot show the real intelligence, which they also have, including the data from their electronic warfare exercise SEA BREEZE 2014 and the data from their spy satellite, which just happened to be over the area during the downing of the Malasysian Boeing.
The other relevant information, which the Russian colonel revealed, was that the Malaysian Boeing was insured for $97 million against damages or losses as a result of military actions.
$97 million is less than half of the cost of the least expensive Boeing 777.
Three questions. 1) Is it typical for an airline to ensure against military action? 2) When was the insurance taken out? 3) Is there a limit to policy coverage that would have precluded covering the entire cost?
Comment. If Malaysia airlines was complicit in this there were likely other points of leverage, both coercive and corrupting that were brought to bear beyond the formal payout from the insurance carrier. Perhaps they were simply adding on to other “informal” compensation. In the wake of Larry Silverstein’s 911 bonanza they may have learned not to be TOO obvious.
My question is – was Putin flying back from Brazil at the same time MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile?
Here is an interesting post from Lord Stirling’s News Blog;
“…Putin has proven to be a brilliant strategist and not easy to trap. Hence, I believe that the decision was made to “take him out” of the picture by destroying his state aircraft as it flew over Russia but near the Ukraine on his return from South America.
That the Latin American trip included a key Brics Conference in Brazil which was a direct attack on the Rothschild-headed Global Banking Cartel’s power over the global economy and financial system, was a key factor in the decision that Putin had to be eliminated. “
http://europebusines.blogspot.com/2014/07/ecm-battle-over-poland-saved-putins.html
and
“The Russians have no advantage to ‘outing’ the true story. For one thing they helped, by using ECM, to cause MH17 to be shot down. Secondly, without a downed Israeli F-15I, to prove the story, it would simply be a “he said, she said” story that the Israelis and Ukrainians would deny. So we have this on-going back and forth claims that the Junta’s Buk surface-to-air missile downed the Malaysian airliner, or that somehow the ‘rebels’ shot it down, or that the Russians fired a surface-to-air missile that took it down.â€
Is there any way to cross check this information?
– Joe
MrCati does analysis on numberic codes and on the 9th of July he put out this video
The IMF Code 77 – Putin Observation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeAeaNUy5tg&list=UUHNejj7WUFffGYWB9FEUwMA
Because of Christine (Magic 7) Lagard’ws video and the historical assassination attempt on 20th July on Hitler. In this video he asks the question if they would try to assassinate Putin.
German translation of the article:
http://youtu.be/c21Ar9J_nzs
Thank you very much for creating this translation, Gwen. I greatly appreciate this kind of support.
malshy says:
07/25/2014 at 3:05 am
To casual observer
Note that on April 11 the flight path depicted by FlightAware was some 400 miles to the south. The reason for that I wonder.
I cant see an option to reply to that remark malshy so I hope this comes through ok – you are a liar my friend, the flight path on the 11th was the same on this website as the 17th, it’s still there for all to see, I wonder you bothered posting at all when all who can be bothered to check for themselves can & will see the same as I do?
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140411/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK
Above is the flight path for April 11 – right across the middle of the Black Sea.
the map above states the 10 flights prior to 17/7 were south of the route traveled on 17/7 implying something suspicious going on, the paths on the days before 17 were as I stated above, who cares where it flew some 3 months earlier in April – that is no relevance to this map
A news story the BBC censored from public viewing. Too near the truth for the comfort of the current UK Government. Yet this helps to confirm Aleksand Zhilin’s account.
http://rt.com/news/175476-bbc-deleted-report-mh17/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome
Interesting to see the following comment “They [Kiev troops] use these civilian aircraft to hide behind,†he told Ivshina. However, he added that if self-defense troops had such a weapon, then they would have tried to down the jets.”
The following article has a discussion about the video of the plane coming down, but it is MH17 but the Su-25 that was shot down. http://carolinacowboy.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/i-we-do-not-know-how-flight-mh17-was-shot-down-how-can-we-know-who-did-it/
However it does have one good item in “At the 1:42 mark I took this snapshot below that shows what appears to be “chaffs†(radar countermeasure, chaff is dispensed by aircraft to decoy radar-seeking missiles), the white streamers, falling through the smoke of the crash which did not start rising until after the plane hit the ground. Thus it is highly unlikely that these stramer came from flight MH17, for as you can see in the video above, it came straight down to the ground at a high rate of speed with nothing visible coming out of it.” and gives the following link http://www.esterline.com/defensetechnologies/Countermeasures/RadarChaff.aspx
Another comprehensive report by Niall Bradley
Asymmetric Warfare: MH17 False-Flag Terror and the ‘War’ on Gaza
http://www.sott.net/article/282575-Asymmetric-Warfare-MH17-False-Flag-Terror-and-the-War-on-Gaza
A note*
Regarding OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine
It appears that the spokesperson for the group doing the ‘independent’ investigation of the MH17 crash site has an interesting link to fascists in the Kiev gov’t.
According to this letter from 1987, Michael BOCIURKIW was a frequent contributor and later Assistant Editor for the Ukrainian Weekly Newspaper (Jersey City, NJ).
You can actually browse through archived versions of the newspaper on the UKRWeekly website. It should be noted that the newspaper has a ‘pro-OUN/B’ tone.
OUN/B (Organization of Ukrainian Nationals/Bondera) is the ultra-nationalist party of Stepan BONDERA, that collaborated with the Nazi occupation of the country during World War II. BONDERA himself was wanted by Russia for war crimes after the war, and was very likely a US intelligence asset.
Political parties involved in the Kiev government today (Svoboda, Pravy Sektor) consider Stepan BONDERA a Hero of Ukraine, a title he was honored with posthumously by former president Viktor YUSHCHENKO.
—
OSCE Ukrainian Mission Spokesperson Michael BOCIURKIW
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-21/osce-describes-process-for-identifying-bodies-from/5610862
1987 Rosenbaum Letter to Canadian Jewish Congress
http://www.willzuzak.ca/lp/rosenb01.html
UKRWeekly Archives (PDF format)
http://www.ukrweekly.com/WebFileBrowser/browser3.php
OUN on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists#Split_in_the_OUN
Stepan BONDERA wanted war criminal, receives assistance from OSS (1946)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/235113917/O-S-S-Plans-tipoff-of-Nazi-Collaborator-Stepan-Bondera
Svoboda – Bondera Memorial March
http://www.euronews.com/2014/01/02/ukraine-thousands-march-in-support-of-controversial-nationalist-hero/
Also make sure to check out the great and voluminous investigative work of Dave Emory @
http://www.spitfirelist.com
I’ve been looking at pictures of engines of Boeing 777’s. None of the engines at the MH17 crash site look like Boeing 777 engines. They look much smaller and there seem to be four engines at the crash site, while a Boeing 777 only has two.
Check out this site:
http://www.tatoott1009.com/2014/07/20/mh17-plane-engines-completely-the-wrong-size-comparison-pictures-reveal-the-truth-your-opinion-please/
I’ve searched for more images of the engines or propeller blades, which are the hardest parts of the aircraft. So far I haven’t found any images that look like Boeing 777 engines.
What do you think?
I just want to add that I’m certainly no aviation expert, but there should be some visually recognizable parts.
I’m not really confident about the MH370 swap theory. I see no reason to pull such an elaborate hoax and they certainly don’t need to steal an aircraft to get their hands on one.
The fact that both planes are Boeing 777’s could be due to numerological reasons only. The fact that both planes are Malaysian could be due to Malaysia’s leading role in condemning Israeli aggression in the UN. Yes, I do believe Israel is a key player in these events.
Here is a video of map overlays of the russian info on google earth
CV3D | SAM sites near Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash site and worldwide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4wztjVH3KI
Shows photos and close up of a missile site that the plane would have flown over shortly before the plane went down
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/
Quite a good compendium of the evidence so far.
Apologies if posted before – A very interesting blog post about a now deleted BBC report. I’ve copied and pasted the preamble of the post, but would advise you to go to the original, read what’s there, and rip the two YouTube clips for posterity.
The Catastrophe of #MH17: #BBC in the Search of the “#BUK†– The Video Report Deleted by @BBC
Preamble: The original BBC Video Report was published by BBC Russian Service on July 23, 2014. Why did BBC delete this report by Olga Ivshina? Is it because the BBC team was unable to find any evidence that a rocket was launched in the area that the Ukrainian Security Service (“SBUâ€) alleges to be the place from which the Novorossiya Militia launched a “BUK†missile?
Or is it because every eyewitness interviewed by the BBC team specifically indicated the presence of Ukrainian military aircraft right beside the Malaysian Airlines Boeing MH17 at the time that it was shot down?
Or is it because of eyewitness accounts (like the one posted following the transcript of the BBC report) confirming that the Ukrainian air force regularly used civilian aircraft flying over Novorossiya as human shields to protect its military aircraft conducting strikes against civilian population from the Militia’s anti-aircraft units?
I reserve the final judgment to the readers of this blog. This entry is broken down into:
introductory paragraphs to the BBC video report;
English-language transcript of the BBC video report; and,
a video interview with Elena, a Militia fighter, recorded in Slavyansk on or about June 18, 2014, or one month prior to the MH17 catastrophe, wherein she states that, even then, the Ukrainian military aircraft would customarily hide behind civilian aircraft to bomb civilian targets on the ground.
In the last part of this entry Elena predicts that the Ukrainian military will stage the horrible catastrophe like the MH17 crash – she makes this prediction one whole month prior to the disaster.
http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/25/video-report-deleted-by-bbc/
Here is the definitive explanation of what happened to MA17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6J0nzDH50w
A new angle focusing on the link between the development of gas reserves, Shell oil based in Holland and “coincidences” involving MH 17.
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2014/07/27/flight-mh17-royal-dutch-shell-and-the-yuzovshi-shale-gas-field-what-could-it-mean/#more-30764
Scott doesn’t discuss the recent attacks on two mayors in Ukraine but I wonder if the locations of the towns involved correlate with the gas development zones on his map. Here’s an article about that with a heavy dose of Pro Kiev propaganda ladled on.
http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/attacks-kill-ukraine-mayor-oleg-babayev-bomb-andrii-sadovyis-house/story-fnh81p7g-1227002879797
Expanding on the previous post just above.
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2014/07/28/crisis-warfare-understanding-flight-mh17s-crash-site-in-the-context-of-ukraines-civil-war-6-illustrations/#more-30772
Here’s a funny picture: http://www.voanews.com/content/ukraine-signs-10-billion-shale-gas-deal-with-shell/1590447.html
Only last year Shell signed a big contract with the former Ukrainian President Yanukovich. Our prime minister Rutte is now shaking hands with the fascists that overthrew Yanukovich after he made his swing toward Russia. For Dutch politicians it’s all about the gas deal and they use this tragedy shamelessly.
And just for a laugh, this Dutch cyclist cheats death twice by booking trips on both MH370 & MH17 and then changing his flight at the last minute to miss a stop in China or to save some cash.
Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/dutch-cyclist-maarten-de-jonge-cheats-death-twice-after-changing-flights-from-both-malaysia-airlines-mh17-and-mh370-9617243.html
http://rt.com/news/176120-fake-ukraine-images-defence/
US insults everyone’s intelligence…yet again…with false evidence.
So now the main question regarding MH17 is the same as it was the day of and the day after…who came into the Kiev Air Traffic Control tower and took the communications tapes of the conversations between ATC and MH17? Where are these tapes now? Why haven’t they been released? Follow this rabbit hole and it will lead to the perps of the latest false flag. Note: the M$M is not even asking these pivotal questions but has, instead, started a median piling on of Putin/Russia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6aiKtQ6hZ8
Joaquin Flores comes out and says (at 7.30 on the above video) that MH17 and MH370 were one and the same plane. This is a huge development. The above video is an excellent analysis of the geopolitical dynamics lying behind MH17 IMO. I would be interested in hearing what James thinks about it, and others.
gc
Is there any theory on WHY the planes were swapped?
Hi Bart:
Joaquin’s theory (not mine) is that the official strategy of the US/Israel is to implement a policy of “crazy”…I am using his word. You have to watch the interview to understand what he is saying. Basically, the US has started to deliberately act “insane” in order to put the other countries off guard and “terrorize” them–by letting them know that nothing is beyond consideration…even the most heinous/unmentionable behaviour.
I am not saying this is what I believe…it’s just that I thought this was an “open source” investigation, so all theories were up for consideration/discussion…thank you for being the first/only responder to my post.
Regards,
gc
The photo-evidence is too indecisive for me. I do agree it’s just too much of a coincidence that both planes were Malaysian Boeing 777’s, but there must be a more logical explanation then just creating random chaos. I can’t think of any reason, even in symbology or numerology, to steal an airplane, store the bodies for months, only to put them in another plane and crash it on the other side of the world.
So, without convincing evidence, or a motive that makes sense, I think the swap theory is too far fetched. Although I must admit the story about body’s not being fresh leaves me with an unsettling feeling. Farmers do not make this stuff up.
Hi GC,
Did you notice on the link to Joaquin’s video there has been an update dismissing his original analysis on the comparison of MH370 with MH17..
Hi alwhitesands:
I looked at the video again and don’t see any disclaimer. Can you be specific? The part about MH17 and MH370 being one and the same plane starts at 8.00 on the video. It is the same as in the video I posted above.
gc
Shocking Analysis of the ‘Shooting Down’ of Malaysian MH17 July 30, 2014 at 6:09 pm
By Peter Haisenko (Anderwelt Online)
The tragedy of Malaysian MH 017 continues to elude any light of clarity being cast over it. The flight recorders are in England and are evaluated. What can come of it? Maybe more than you would assume. Especially the voice recorder will be interesting when you look at the picture of a cockpit fragment. As an expert in aviation I closely looked at the images of the wreckage that are circulating on the Internet.
First, I was amazed at how few photos can be found from the wreckage with Google. All are in low resolution, except one: The fragment of the cockpit below the window on the pilots side. This image, however, is shocking. In Washington, you can now hear views expresssed of a “potentially tragic error / accident†regarding MH 017. Given this particular cockpit image it does not surprise me at all.
Entry and exit impact holes of projectiles in the cockpit area
I recommend to click on the little picture to the right. You can download this photo as a PDF (at link) in good resolution. This is necessary, because that will allow you understand what I am describing here. The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likeley that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile. The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes showing shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that at these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent – outwardly! Furthermore, minor cuts can be seen, all bent outward, which indicate that shrapnel had forcefull exited through the outer skin from the inside of the cockpit. The open rivets are are also bent outward.
In sifting through the available images one thing stands out: All wreckage of the sections behind the cockpit are largely intact, except for the fact that only fragments of the aircraft remained . Only the cockpit part shows these peculiar marks of destruction. This leaves the examiner with an important clue. This aircraft was not hit by a missile in the central portion. The destruction is limited to the cockpit area. Now you have to factor in that this part is constructed of specially reinforced material. This is on account of the nose of any aircraft having to withstand the impact of a large bird at high speeds. You can see in the photo, that in this area significantly stronger aluminum alloys were being installed than in the remainder of the outer skin of the fuselage. One remembers the crash of Pan Am over Lockerbie. It was a large segment of the cockpit that due to the special architecture survived the crash in one piece. In the case of flight MH 017 it becomes abundantly clear that an explosion took place inside the aircraft.
Continued at link –
http://bsnews.info/shocking-analysis-shooting-malaysian-mh17/
Not sure if you’ve seen this collection of photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/
Knowing that the plane came from Schiphol Airport which has a dodgy security history and even dodgier security company there (ITCS – which I believe was the security company at Heathrow where the Lockerbie Pan Am plane departed from), an explosive device onboard is far within the realms of possibility.
Bart:
This deliberate “crazy-making” theory first came up some years after 9/11…there were so many obvious “clues” left behind by the perps that some researchers said it was a deliberate “up yours” effect to say: “Look what we did and what we got away with.” So this is really not a new perspective. There are some obvious clues/evidence pointing to the perps, which are blithely ignored by the PTB and it’s presstitute media. While I have some problems with the “crazy-making” theory, like you, I cannot get past the “pre-dead” passengers. I am hopeful that some more information will come out on that now that the remains are in the Netherlands.
gc
I’m aware of the chaos-effect they want to create with such events, but usually there is a high level of symbolism involved or the event serves a certain agenda. I can’t find any motive of that kind in the MH370-MH17 swap theory, nor are there any references to it in the propaganda. As stated in my post below, I’m not even sure it was a Boeing 777 that crashed.
Dutch authorities are definitely involved in this plot, so they will cover up any evidence the investigation might yield. None of the parties involved in the investigation, Dutch or international, are independent and any information will be distorted.
Hi GC I don’t understand why my replies are not displayed. I will try this one without adding a link. Under Joaquin’s video is a link to the video presentation regarding the photos comparing MH17 with MH370. There is an up date and retraction to the original photo analysis.
Hi alwhitesands:
Of course the discussion has deteriorated into a ‘debunked/not debunked’ confusion. See Jim Stone website for the history of this redaction and then redaction of the redaction. Here is the google photos of the planes:
https://www.google.com.mx/search?q=mh17+crash&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=t8HWU6XVLuXK8gHDs4F4&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=634
As I keep saying…we need the ATC communication tapes (which should have already been released) and we need the coroner forensic reports on the deceased. For now it remains a mystery,
Something tells me if pro-russian rebels did shoot the plane, we would have ATC recording by now in addition to images of the missile launch from US space satellite and the press conference with air traffic controller who was guiding the plane.
Here is the most talked photo of the day in high resolution :
http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111
Sorry I’m late to this party, anyone els think the two jet shot down later were “lose end’s” being tidied?
There seems something coincidental about it, but I don’t think there is a relationship between the two jets that tailed MH17 and the two jets that were shot down by the Novorossians a day or so later.
I notice that the sheeple have all been diverted to look towards the “pause to reload” cease fire in Gaza…and away from the still missing MH17 ATC communications data. The longer this piece of evidence is not made public…the more self-evident it is that the Kiev junta has something to hide.
Fully agree the missing MH17 ATC communications data is massive and MTM should be all over it, the fact that it isn’t is very telling.
Something I am wondering was it G8 or G7 when C. Lagarde gave that speech?
I was wondering the same thing – Russia was “suspended” from the G8 in March, a couple of months after she gave the speech. That is why people like Lagarde are the chiefs of these global institutions – they are so smart, they can even predict the future. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2588490/G8-G7-leaders-kick-Russia-Its-not-big-problem-says-Putins-foreign-minister.html
The smoking gun
Previous passenger air downings by missiles;
1978 Korean Air, 1983 Korean Air, 1987 Air Malawi, 1988 Iran Air
2001 Russian Sibir Airlines (surface-to-air missile that was fired during a military training exercise in Ukraine)
Possible surface to air missile
2014 Malaysian Air Boeing 777
2014 Malaysian Air Boeing 777
Unless there is a structural problem with the Boeing 777 then there must be some statistical significance with two Boeing 777s being downed and the closeness of time. Malaysia Airlines MH370 disappeared on 7/3/2014 (GMT)and MH17 came down on 17/7/2014.
Also why are there so many 7’s involved and seemingly predicted at 11 minutes into this video; “https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b67OGUsQC44#t=521”
Interesting statements from an Estonian (NATO) retired general: http://news.err.ee/v/politics/450159a1-3747-4c8e-9e03-0321b656f898, from the ERR English news (the Estonian BBC).
Original in Estonian: http://maaleht.delfi.ee/news/uudised/eestiuudised/kindral-roosimagi-tode-ei-taha-keegi-teada.d?id=69452167
I did not read the interview in Estonian (behind a paywall), but the title would be translated as “Nobody wants to know the truth”, much stronger than the ERR is reporting.
Rosimägi seems to confirm many things the Western media has avoided: The US has yet to produce a clear photo, Ukrainian military with BUK were also in the area, the likelihood of Russia shooting down the plane is low, Ukrainian air defense base containing the weapons system was looted by separatists before, it is possible that missile was an error by the Ukrainian side, that it takes 6-7 months to learn to operate a Buk system, not 2-3 days as the Ukrainians are saying. “Saying that the Buk display did not distinguish between military and civilian aircraft, he said the incident must have been an accident.”
Christine Lagarde’s speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYmViPTndxw was given in January. She clearly says G7 where she should have said G8. According to wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G8 it was ” On March 24, 2014, the original G7 nations voted to effectively suspend Russia from the organization in response to the country’s annexation of Crimea;[8][9][10] however, it was made clear that the suspension was temporary”
9/11 author and investigator Christopher Bollyn is the sleuth who tracked down the MH370 double Boeing 777 that was located in a hangar in Tel Aviv after MH370 plane went missing. So, with that in mind I again visited his website bollyn.com today to see what he had for MH17. Sure enough, he has something and it is very intriguing here is a sample:
“There is a great deal of mystery about what caused the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 to come down in eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014. One of the mysteries is why an Israeli named Yaron Mofaz took a photo of the plane before it left the airport in Amsterdam and then sold the photo to Reuters who published it shortly after the plane went down.
WHO IS YARON MOFAZ?
To confirm that Yaron Mofaz was indeed the name of the photographer, I called Reuters in Amsterdam and London. Peter Biggs in the London office confirmed that Yaron Mofaz was indeed the real name of the photographer.
*******************************************
“….Because I knew the answer beforehand, I then asked Yossi Mofaz if his company, Pentagon 2000, had done business with Aviv Tzur and Avborne Heavy Maintenance, Inc. in south Florida. He confirmed that they did work together so I then asked if they also did business with GA Telesis, another company headed by Aviv Tzur. Yossi Mofaz confirmed that they did work with GA Telesis, which was the key confirmation I needed.
The fact that the Mofaz company works with GA Telesis is important because this is the aircraft disassembly company that owned a twin of the Malaysia Airlines plane that disappeared in March 2014. The GA Telesis twin Boeing 777 was a former Malaysia Airlines aircraft that the company sent to Israel in November 2013 although they had previously said that the aircraft would be disassembled in the United States…â€.
So folks, as they say, “the plot thickens”…as we continue to wait for the MH17 ATC communications data to be released.
Dutch PM Rutte told the press yesterday that the process of identifying the bodies may take several months. He stressed that process will be very ‘thorough’. Only 2 bodies have been returned to their relatives to far. This gave me the chills. Is identifying the bodies really that hard, or are they forging the evidence?
I’m still looking for pictures of the engines of the crashed MH17 Boeing 777. They should be as big as a truck, but the engines at the crash site are more like family cars. Also the propeller blades have the wrong shape and size.
However, there are other pieces at the crash site that do look like a Boeing 777, for example the piece of the cockpit with the supposed 30mm cannon holes in it. But these low-weight pieces of evidence are easy to fabricate, compared to massive engines crashing into the ground from 10km altitude.
So, to me the jury is still out whether it was actually a Boeing 777 that crashed. The entire crash site might be a hoax and created to look like a plane crash, as was suggested earlier in this topic. It might have been a completely different plane loaded with dead bodies. I’m so sorry we have to speculate on such a horrendous scenario. Something is very off.
Yes, it is a step down on the humanity ladder to have to speculate about why an entity would load dead bodies on a plane and then crash it or blow it up over a war zone…but unfortunately that seems to be where the perps may be taking us.
I read yesterday that Putin’s 29 year old daughter and her boyfriend were living a short distance from Schiphol airport outside of Amsterdam. After MH17 went down, some of fairly high level personalities in the Netherlands made threats and anti Putin propaganda to the extent that she and her boyfriend have moved from their flat and are now located at an “undisclosed location”.
Yes, we more or less bullied her out. More importantly, there is a discussion in Holland to oust Yukos, which has a ‘mailbox firm’ in Amsterdam to avoid taxes in Russia. Dutch politicians will not jeopardize our tax-haven status, but the newspapers are attacking anything Russian.
James – watched the video of Alfred Adask and Financial Survival yesterday. In your discussion regarding MH17, you suggested one method of identifying the perpetrator is to look not so much at the “action,” (i.e., the events up to and including the crash itself), but the “reaction,” (i.e., actions of interested parties after the event). GREAT ADVICE! So here goes: On one hand, Russia is consistently calling for an open investigation into the facts. Further, they immediately released satellite imagery showing the trailing fighter jet. The ethnic Russians at the crash site also appealed for international assistance. On the other side – the U.S./EU/west Ukraine is not in favor of investigating the facts. This seeming lack of curiosity is eerily familiar to the U.S. opposing any UN investigation of the gas attack in Syria last year because, as Samantha Power screeched, the evidence of Assad being responsible was already crystal clear. See http://robertjprince.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/no-to-u-s-led-attack-on-syria-obama-playing-with-fire/ . In truth, however, the reason why the U.S. opposed investigating the sarin gas attack was because they already knew it was perpetrated by their own proxies, not Assad’s troops. See http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line . Similarly with MH17, the U.S. has shown no inclination to do anything other than insinuate that Putin was responsible. The U.S. has provided no satellite imagery whatsoever, except for a release on Twitter early last Sunday morning purporting to show a patch of scorched earth where artillery was fired from Russia into the Ukraine at some earlier point in time. One is reminded of Cliff Clavin’s famous attempt to convince the patrons of Cheers that divine intervention had caused his prized potato to develop into the spitting image of Richard Nixon. Thus, in spite of the undeniable possession by the U.S. of true satellite imagery of the event, we get instead the satellite version of a postman’s potato. Further, the reactions of the Ukraine “government” have also been obstructive of any investigation, i.e., refusal to hand over the enormously probative air traffic control tapes. The west Ukrainians also resumed shelling in the area of the crash, further obstructing any outside investigation. They have also put forth fraudulent evidence, i.e., the youtube video where the ethnic Russians discuss the mistaken downing of a passenger plane. Regardless of the date stamp on that video, it’s pretty incontrovertible that its audio was spliced together. As for the E.U., whereas it had opposed heavier sanctions on Russia before July 17th, its reaction to the event was to dance lock step with the U.S. and vote for heavier sanctions. And finally, for a truly psychotic reaction to the downing of MH17 – just a few hours after the event, Israel commenced its ground assault on Gaza.
Interesting new angle :
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/land-for-gas-secret-german-deal-could-end-ukraine-crisis-9638764.html
If so, this could imply that MH17 could have been taken down to interfere in the secret deal between Germany and Russia. The US would have most to gain with the shoot down, as it has brought these secret deal (if verified) to an end.
Since the shoot down (as mentioned in the article) there has been a shift in which the EU has been forced to take sides against Putin, moving on to sanctions and a more aggressive stand against Putin.
Your thoughts ?
There could be truth in this story. Merkel was much more reluctant to impose sanctions on Russia than Cameron and Hollande. Merkel kept very quiet after the MH17 crash. Eventually she joined the gang, but I think she had to be pulled back in line.
http://www.thelocal.de/20140720/europe-threatens-russia-with-sanctions-over-mh17-crash
Thanks for the link!
“Merkel mum on sanctions
Four Germans were among the victims, but Merkel has so far continued to take a softly, softly approach to Putin”
This could make the story plausible.
If so, the shooting down of MH17, if this secret talk where to be true, would shed a whole new light on the story.
It could therefore be possible that some secret service (be it US, Ukrainian, or ??) got hold of these secret talks and sabotaged them via the MH17 crash… then we can ask > Cui Bono ? I guess the US / NATO has the most to gain in this situation.
Can anyone further verify this Wikileaks cable :
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06KIEV1706_a.html#efmAZUAZ-
It mentions (dating 2006)”Our Ukraine (OU) insider Petro Poroshenko”.
Does this imply that current Ukraine president Poroshenko was working / tied to the NATO or CIA at that time ?
Here’s an interesting article:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111
With a photo of a cockpit exterior segment that is fairly convincingly described as riddled with bullet holes from both directions.
That same photo is also here:
http://themillenniumreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/MH17-part-with-holes-identified.jpg
showing the segment of the planes body that this fragment appears to come from. That photo is from the following article:
http://themillenniumreport.com/2014/08/evidence-conclusive-ukraine-military-shot-down-mh17-in-false-flag-operation/
Anyone see this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6lWg_nFe_I#t=601
The theory that there was no actual “shoot down” has been advanced previously particularly in relation to the pristine condition of the passports and luggage. The physical location near roads and in the territory containing large natural gas reserves has also been pointed out as a natural inducement for the Kiev government to move in an control the area.
It seems odd however that the Russian data could be so easily mislead.
Comments?
I think that it the real answer to the tragic event will never hit daylight.
Like 9-11, it will remain with theories vs government issued ‘truth’.
The aftermath is what’s relevant at this point. That what mostly seems to be goal of a false flag.
As i posted before, i think the gas drillings in the East (Shell) and West (Joe Biden’s sons company) vs the Russian gas monopoly in the region. And the US/NATO geoplolitical strategy remain the vital issues concerning the future chessboard game. That linken with Gaza Marine, kind of links the natural resource game in my opinion. I could be missing some points though.
Open for feedack!
Almost beyond doubt MH17 brought down by Ukranian SU 25
http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2014/07/28/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/
I have not seen any flight manifests from MH17, that should be recorded and available after each stop-over of flight MH17. There have been reports of some nationalities and/or groups that were travelling on that flight, but no back-up documentation.
The passports… how many? (15 or 20?): new, no marks, no creases… Traveling down the rabbit hole to try to figure out what was being done behind the scenes re 9/11, weird stuff also. Purposeful? We have been so deceived, lied to, manipulated, pushed and pulled around that everything becomes weird and unbelievable. In the case of 9/11 lots of purposefully planted garbage to detain, distract, annoy, make you want to give up. The same seems to be occurring re flight MH17. Even the initial flurry to blame Putin and then the sudden backing off… I doubt there will be any resolution to any of this. It strikes me as a mystery the elements of which have all been carefully pre-arranged. (Including sending the black boxes to Britain…) I’m sick of my government. And maybe that’s part of the plan, too: To so annoy all of us inquiring citizens that the hope is that we will rise up and overthrow this manifestly-corrupt government and thereby help the NWO freaks move forward with their plans.
Ursushan, did you discover the fact that several passports (shown in the initial wreckage videos) where expired / unusable passports. I am fro the Netherlands, and when our passport expires, they punch several holes in it so it becomes invalid. These passports with expiration holes can be seen in the video. I think theres even a video discussing this on Youtube, as there is a Malaysian ‘expired’ passport in there too.
Very good point! Great observation.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/flight-mh17-shoot-down-scenario-shifts/5394746
Interesting article fits with my thinking, the lack of information seems to be telling. What about the black boxes been in the UK for a week or more now? Voice recording could be telling if the flight was diverted or it other aircraft contacted the flight.
This has fallen off the mainstream news channels, the story has been told by them (and I do mean story told, not reported)
Simon
For the past few days there has been much talk about and scrutiny of “the most talked about photo” featuring the section of cockpit which appears to have been riddled with large bullet holes which I guess in a normal investigation would undergo forensic analysis and in this instance maybe point to a fighter jet strafing the cockpit rather than a BUK as the MSM have been spewing relentlessly. But as reported in the above post from Global research via Simon that military activity near the crash site caused further wreckage contamination.
“…On Saturday, the last paragraph of a New York Times story by Andrew E. Kramer reported that “the fighting ignited a fire in a wheat field that burned over fuselage fragments, including one that was potentially relevant to the crash investigation because it had what appeared to be shrapnel holes.†The shrapnel holes have been cited by independent analysts as possible evidence of an attack by Ukrainian jetfighters.” ….. Hmm that’s convenient
And now for something completely different.
http://youtu.be/kQ84OmPprJM
Not forgetting we’ve already seen evidence of these flight monitoring sites manipulating their ‘data’.
This Radar shows Singapore Airlines flight piggy backing MH17.
I had linked to this earlier though Daboo 7’s delivery is certainly a lot easier to follow. The question remains, why haven’t the Russians raised this point? It’s their data and they have the most reason to expose the hoax.
On a purely visual level this depiction shows a confluence of air traffic right at that spot as the “event” happens. If nothing else it appears it was timed for maximum confusion.
I had typed a response to your post, jbmetter, but was suddenly “booted out” of the website…strange.
What I was saying was that the non agenda-driven world has already reached the conclusion that the Kiev Junta is guilty of the take down…by dint of their failure to produce exculpatory ATC communications tapes by now. I certainly am confident of that conclusion.
I believe this was a very complex and long planned false flag that was supposed to accomplish a lot of ends both local (Ukraine) and global (Russia). It was poorly executed and fizzled…so it has been “filed under forget” by the operatives…and their presstitute western media.
Here is a link that supports and further explains my view of what likely happened re MH17:
http://www.blacklistednews.com/Interest_in_MH17_Fades_as_Sanctions_%26_War_Edge_Closer/37063/0/38/38/Y/M.html
We must keep in mind that for the perps of this never-ending string of false flags (and watch out for a BIG one coming up soon!) there is no downside. If only chaos and mayhem results…well, for them that’s all to the good…”Order out of Chaos” being one of their overall goals.
The downing of MH17 has raised a lot of speculation as to the cause, the perpetrators, the reasons for the downing, and a multitude of “evidence” which may be true or fabricated. A glaring “coincidence” which is hard to stomach is that the two airliner mysteries involving the same organization were targeted at Malaysia Airlines. Why and who had the ability to do so, and for what reason?
The truth behind the operation may only unravel after a few years when the perpetrators have achieved their goal.
Before It’s News has an update on the Ukraine Conflict that touches on the MH17 mystery:
http://beforeitsnews.com/war-and-conflict/2014/07/pentagon-general-randy-allen-key-wounded-in-ukraine-2453438.html
“…the other day a very senior GRU officer of the General Staff of Russia held a series of private conversations with colleagues from several Western countries.Expressed surprise at the claims to Russia from the United States, which for years arming and training around the world most of these terrorists, GRU officer came to the point.
The point was in two main theses:
1. On the intentions and capabilities of higher authorities officer;
2. On its own capabilities and intentions.
He told me that his boss has irrefutable evidence in the case of the Malaysian “Boeing†and will be forced to publish them, if the stream of slander from the White House about this tragedy does not stop immediately.
Note that information about Boeing , which previously outlined at the briefing Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Lt. Gen. Kartapolov very likely kept deliberately left a gap, which could not fail to draw attention to its Western counterparts…”
*****************************************
I would suggest reading the translation from the original Russian in full…if for no other reason than to enjoy a bit of the “black humour” of the Russians…which is not lost, even in a rather poor translation.
Latest links/info i found concerning MH17 :
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39341.htm
http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/5-august-even-certain-now-obamas-ukrainian-stooges-intentionally-malaysian-airliner/
Hi All,
In keeping with Questions For Corbett and the head up regarding a comprehensive MH 17 discussion I offer the following.
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2014/08/05/malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-the-capital-repatriation-mission-and-all-things-dutch/#more-30869
Scott makes a clear case that the plane was never shot down and that the wreckage was pre positioned to allow the bad guys to lay claim to the gas deposits in the area. The position in relation that that wreckage was absolutely crucial. Scott’s point is that only pre positioning could assure that would happen.
For those asserting the SU 25 shot down MH 17 as per the German pilot’s explanation I offer the following. In keeping with the goal of offering multiple explanations to sow confusion, what if the SU 25 made an approach and steep ascent to MH 17 but did not fire on the plane. Instead what if the SU 25 released chaff or other image confusing technology to make sure the plane disappeared off the radar screens. The pieces of the cockpit could have been shot (prepared) with similar ordinance before the event and pre positioned where they were found.
Pros and cons.
Pros: This explains the pristine luggage and passports, the invalid passports, the mutilated bodies devoid of blood, the position near roads and support structures, the video by coal miners, video of chaff deploying in the explosion over the debris field, photographic evidence suggesting MH 17 is really a cut up MH 370, and the linkage to the gas fields.
Cons. Conflicts with eye witness accounts of bodies falling from the sky, video footage of a plane seemingly making a rapid barely control descent with a damaged engine and the fact that the Russian’s have not challenged the assertion that a plane actually went down.
Looking forward to the podcast.
JBMetter:
I have been troubled by the “pre-dead passengers” from the beginning…and think this could be a connection with MH370. Why have we not heard any results from the autopsies by now? There may have been a combination shoot-down and explosion of pre-planned wreckage. If they blew up a plane on the ground it could still result in “bodies falling from the sky”.
It is an obvious false flag–due to the way the US has used the tragedy to vilify/sanction Russia. I think the Kiev Junta perps also wanted to create a “humanitarian’ corridor to the 400+ soldiers trapped and encircled against the Russian border. These soldiers ultimately surrendered and were taken into Russia last Sunday.
Hello Green Crow, I enjoy your posts. Remind me, where are you writing from?
In terms of the bodies falling from the sky, that depends on those eye witnesses. All it takes is one or two to be compromised and the story is established. Apparently there is some suggestion that this is the case.
Interesting about the 400 soldiers surrendering. I had heard of a smaller group “defecting”. It’s hard to sort out the ebb and flow of that conflict. Is it a fair characterization to say that the tactic of using heavy artillery against civilians has turned the tide in favor of Kiev? Is this the basis of Putin’s moves in the UN security council?
Here is another review article off of American Everyman stressing the “control” aspect of a staged ground event versus actual shoot down event.
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/control-the-1-reason-the-downing-of-flight-mh17-was-staged/#more-30879
Hi JBMetter:
Here’s a link to the story about the 438 soldiers who were caught and encircled behind Novorossian lines.
http://rt.com/news/177956-kiev-abandons-ukrainian-soldiers/
I am posting from the “sunny climes” of Coquitlam, BC Canada. The fact is, the Kiev Junta is losing the “war” badly, soldiers defecting, supplies slow…snipers sniping at the US “advisers”.
NATO will have to put boots on the ground soon or give up…it is a waiting game for both sides in that respect. Russia, historically has won wars by playing a waiting game and allowing the enemy to self-defeat…witness Napoleon.
Re MH17 I do believe it was a very complicated/complex operation with multiple means and goals. I am inclined to believe there was a ground explosion as DAHBOO77 and others have reported. I also think there was an air shoot down as the Russians have reported…finally, I believe it was either a failed assassination attempt against Putin OR a warning to him not to fly internationally in the future.
gc
Excellent information. Thank you!
Did they bring along Nixon’s secretary and her “lead foot” (to erase the MH17 ATC communications tapes) lol
***************************************************
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/news/us-military-team-ukraine-advise-mh17-crash-probe
U.S. military team in Ukraine to advise on MH17 crash probe
published by Tom Sullivan on Wed, 2014-08-06 20:46
A small U.S. survey and assessment team has arrived in the Ukrainian capital of Kiev to assist in investigation efforts into the crash of a Malaysian airliner last month, a Pentagon spokesman said on Tuesday.
The team of about 12 service members will assess, advise and provide recommendations to the U.S. embassy and their staff about possible U.S. support to the Netherlands, Australia, Malaysia and other countries that are conducting Malaysia Airliner MH17 recovery operations, John Kirby said at a Pentagon press conference.
The troops provide expertise in recovery operations — specifically communications, logistics and surveying — and they will not leave Kiev, Kirby said.
“Recovery operations are something, tragically and unfortunately, the U.S. military has to do and has to be good at,” the admiral said
US and Ukraine doing their level best to prevent any real investigation of the cause of the crash.
http://rt.com/news/178948-russia-block-ceasefire-ukraine/
It is absolutely stunning and shocking…it is paradigm shifting…that the Air Traffic Control communications data on MH17 has still not been released to the public and/or handed over to the investigators. Here is an update:
http://www.nst.com.my/node/21260
that suggests:
a) The investigators have not yet asked for the tapes
b) The SBU claims not to have confiscated the tapes
c) The tapes are not relevant after all
All this suggests that we have gone down the rabbit hole yet again. In spite of all the truthers jumping on the plane crash and insisting that there be a fair investigation…the perps have won again…there IS no such thing as a professional fair air plane crash investigation anymore. They are ALL criminal acts and cover-ups that we can only surmise were carried out by a very organized group of international criminals.
Thank you for this update.
I was really concerned they’d put some expensive data manipulation effort in to create an alternative record. However it seems this wretched affair was poorly thought through and now doomed to collapse.
There should be outrage but since there isn’t at least there is another data point that may slowly coalesce in the mind of the sleeping public.
So they are bullet holes then? (quote from the article @greencrow posted):
“The bulletholes these theorists said came from the fighter could have come from any 30mm weapon used by the rebels.”
First time I have heard anyone confirm them as bullet holes. Also this is before the “official” investigation has released its conclusion.
Ron Paul has been saying the US knows more than it is declaring (which I’m sure everyone on here would agree on):
http://rt.com/usa/179284-ron-paul-mh17-ukraine/
Which also makes you think that Russia should also have some pretty conclusive evidence on the matter. They have satellites (surely), they would have been monitoring the sensitive area where fighting was occurring and have picked up on such an attack, you’d think they would have had a quick download of the blackboxes (pure speculation). Yet Russia isn’t coming out with any conclusive evidence to finger the US/Ukraine. You have to wonder why?
IMO I would say that it doesn’t suit their interests to do so…right now. It is a card to be played later. Apparently Putin is treating the 9/11 conspiracy as similar:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-walls-are-crumbling-down-around-the-official-911-story-why/5394984
And/or…it’s just a big show and everyone is in on it and the script is being followed all very nicely at the moment.
I don’t know what James thinks about investigative journalist/blogger Christopher Bollyn:
http://www.bollyn.com/#article_14832
People usually develop strong opinions about him one way or the other. In the above post, he gives a new twist on the MH17 atrocity. As usual, Bollyn sees Zionists at the bottom of every false flag that goes down. And, equally typical, he supports his allegations with serious research and interesting links.
And here is a report from Malaysia that is a summation of what the underside of US media has been saying about MH17 for a number of days now. Don’t want to jump the gun, but would like to know when the International Court of World Justice (does it still exist? do we have one?) will send for BO and Mr. Kerry.
Will return with workable link…
Link to Paul Craig Roberts re MH17:
———- Forwarded message ———-
From: PaulCraigRoberts.org
Date: Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:28 AM
Subject: Washington’s Ukrainian Stooges Shot Down The Malaysian Airliner
Washington’s Ukrainian Stooges Shot Down The Malaysian Airliner
It is as we thought–another Washington crime and lie designed to drive the world toward more war.
Malaysian press charges Ukraine government shot down MH 17
A Thursday article in the New Straits Times, Malaysia’s flagship English-language newspaper, charged the US- and European-backed Ukrainian regime in Kiev with shooting down Malaysian Airlines flight MH 17 in east Ukraine last month.
Read more:
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/08/11/24695/
Suite 1100
1101 17th Street NW
Washington, D.C. 20036
Sorry: I think the above is a prohibited “email notification.” Here is the link minus the other:
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/08/11/24695/
Also, I just read greencrow’s Bollyn link: That information seems to be very well-documented… Wonder when the NYT, the Journal of Foreign Affairs and other “highly respected” mainstream publications will take this incriminating data up?
I want to add that there is so much in this affair that cries out for elaboration. Washington establishment figures had their fingers on the criminal–Russia–less than 24 hours after the airliner was downed. That worked in the case of 9/11. Some 13-odd years have now passed and too many of us are still laboring under the illusion that box-cutting Muslims at the behest of OBL performed this dastardly deed. But hasn’t this trigger-happy tactic of naming criminal parties before the dust has settled become a little irresponsible? As someone pointed out recently, official finger-pointing before the first stages of an investigation have been initiated tends to cast blame directly on the one doing the pointing. The Journal of Foreign Affairs has been filled with articles naming Russia as the guilty party in the MH17 tragedy. Standards of responsible journalism, from what I have seen, are completely absent, so much so that this publication appears to be even more irresponsible than Fox News. Am looking for comments from others who may have more experience with the Journal of Foreign Affairs than I do. Anyone?
Hesitate to add one more comment lest all of the recent comments will be mine, but I want to comment on the link greencrow posted above re Israel and the Ukraine. Bollyn’s information has the effect of making one’s hair stand on end. Have read that the NSA routes all of our internal emails to Israel which makes this even more concerning. “Bandit nation” fails to properly describe Israel if even one-quarter of what Bollyn says is true. And this propensity Israel demonstrates of simply murdering anyone who gets in its way has been suggested/implied elsewhere, i.e., the Danish demolition expert who was consulted about the apparent controlled demolition of world trade center tower 7 and who later died in a road accident not unlike the one that killed the journalist in LA earlier this year. There were others… things about which there can be no certainty, but for which mere suggestion is enough. The US government is supporting Israeli terrorism to the tune of 60 billion a year. Having watched the mayhem in Gaza over the past number of weeks, there’s no reason to mince words with respect to a proper description of Israel. Might it be that the Executive branch of the US government is unaware of the extent of Israel’s criminal activities? Is that possible? Is Israel leading us around by the nose? The US Liberty (?) Wasn’t that the name of the warship that the Israelis knowingly bombed out of the water in the 1960s, pretending they didn’t know that it was a United States warship? Again, if even one-quarter of these things are true we have a MAJOR problem on our hands. Sooner or later the US government must address the problem of Israel, the number of dual American-Israeli citizens serving there, what they did or did not know about the two lost Malaysian airliners, not to speak of 9/11… In other words, this would seem to be a completely untenable situation. And it doesn’t even touch upon the ways in which Israel via AIPAC interferes directly in questions of who and who should not be allowed to represent US citizens in the United States Congress: Cynthia McKinney? I’ve heard Dennis Kucinich? How many others have there been?
I have been quietly following this and have been wondering increasingly why the contents of the black boxes haven’t been revealed. The contents should easily have been accessed and analysed withing 24 to 48 hours.
I can only surmise that there was nothing in them that was of use in smearing the freedom fighters or Russia. Maybe the contents contained undesirable radio confirmation of irregular redirection orders and/or reports confirming the presence of a fighter jet or two.
Why isn’t the media following up on this?
Colin
Here are links to threads we have at pilotsfor911truth forum:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22756
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22757
And this one with some my original research into the issue I’ve started there:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22759
It is quite startling that the pilots of the other flights, which were relatively very close to the MH17 when it was taken down and crashed (the Singapore Airlines flight 351 Copenhagen-Singapore – NW from the MH17 – and the Air India flight 113 Delhi-Birmingham SE from the MH17) so far haven’t reported anything, although if the plane would be indeed taken down by the BUK SAM they should see the characteristic condensation/exhaust trail of the missile if there indeed was any fired from the ground and there is also startling lack of other such witness accounts despite the trail should be there visible from wide surroundings. Instead we have multiple witness accounts that there was another plane closely tailing the MH17 below it and indeed there are unidentified primary radar returns just 3-5 kilometers NW from the MH17 at the time of the crash at the russian ARTCC radar. Also the crash debris field is relatively very small and quite inconsistent with fragmentation of the plane at the 10 kilometers/490 knots, which would most likely inevitably happen if hit by the BUK missile with relatively big 70kg frgmentation warhead. Instead it very much looks the plane must have been still relatively intact during its fall at less than 1 kilometer altitude given the relatively small debris field and the distance of the tail section impact point from the main debris field where the engines and wings were found (about halfkilometer from the tail section). This leads me to the suspicion that the MH17 wasn’t taken down by a SAM but by a small AAM or 30mm gunfire (or both) hiting primarily the cockpit of the MH17 and fired from the unidentified plane (there is still not completely confirmed hypothesis it was an ukrainian SU25).
I’ve been following this thread with interest, but haven’t had much to add myself recently. There’s so much information and side-stories that I find it hard to come to a conclusion as to what I think happened. I get tired and confused from investigating all the different angles and I guess that’s the goal of all the disinformation out there. However, it is pretty clear to me that Kiev/Nato/Shell/CIA/Mossad were involved in staging this event and that Moscow is not our ally in revealing the truth either.
In the end the details of the event are not really important anymore. What matters is the effect that it created and the media propaganda they were able to build on this event. Truth is totally irrelevant in mass media, it is all about creating that image.
Like Colin Green mentioned, it is remarkable how the media is ignoring the lack of information coming from the research team. More than 200 forensic experts are involved in the investigation, but not a single piece of information has come out yet. The head of the team even declared that it is no problem that they are not able to visit the crash site. They can finish the report anyway.
The MH17 story is hardly in the news anymore. Now everybody is talking about the ‘Russian invasion’. If MH17 is mentioned at all it’s something like “we will never know for sure, but most likely it were those pesky rebels. Now, on to the weather report…”.
Completely agree with the lack of information forthcoming, the black box information not coming out telling to me. That is odd to me, if they supported the western version then the information would be front page news, and hourly news bulletin news.
The Russian information is covered in this Zerohedge article and ZH have a good break down of the 28mins video presentation, also that is linked in the article.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
Also ends with the 10 questions the Russians asked.
Aviation Week has a link to video of the radar, mind you that means nothing to me and I cannot interpret what a radar screen means!
http://aviationweek.com/awin-only/russia-shares-mh17-radar-data
Cheers
Simon
A statement by Kiev, somewhat negelcted by the International press
http://www.globalresearch.ca/desperate-mh-17-intelligence-spin-by-ukraine-secret-service-pro-russian-rebels-had-targeted-a-russian-passenger-plane/5395501
Googling : ‘MH17 Black Box’ i found contradicting stories.
Around the dates of August 15/16, in general these stories are to be found (random chosen post):
“MH17: Black box findings to be released next month”
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/08/15/mh17-preliminary-report-on-black-box-to-be-known-September/
While the media stories circualting circa 27/28 July mention the following : (random chosen post) :
“MH17: Black box reveals Malaysia Airlines suffered “massive explosive decompression”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10996400/MH17-Black-box-reveals-Malaysia-Airlines-suffered-massive-explosive-decompression.html
Either i am missing something or the fact that around 28 July there was information / data already released from the black boxes, but in the August 16 press outlets i get the impression no information has been released at all, pending till september.
Any feedback welcome.
A couple of links regarding the lack of feedback on the ‘investigations’.
1. Good stuff from Pepe
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-02-150814.html
2. Word from the Dutch investigation
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/fm/The_investigation_into_the_crash_of_flight_MH17_led_by_the_Dutch_Safety_Board_will_continue_in_The_Hague.pdf
The terms of reference from the Dutch are not good news for those seeking the ‘Truth’.
Specifically – The Dutch Safety Board will not make any statements with regard to apportioning blame or liability, and these issues will not form part of its investigation.
So, if they are not going to investigate – who will? Or is this a candidate for the memory hole?
Here’s a video that I am going to post on this site (MH17) AND on the Ebola investigation site…Incredibly, according to this report, the two news stories have suddenly merged, with the information that Ebola researcher Glenn Thomas was killed in the MH17 shoot-down…just as he was travelling to a medical convention to discuss the Ebola virus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zO64bUgQtc
http://birdflu666.wordpress.com/2014/07/25/george-soros-ebola-and-the-death-of-who-spokesperson-glenn-thomas-in-the-ukraine/
I think Glenn Thomas was only a media officer for WHO, not a researcher.
http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/MH17-Glenn-Thomas-media-officer-World-Health/story-21656990-detail/story.html
Yes good catch, doesn’t appear that he was a Ebola researcher at all. His previous position was with the BBC and he worked in the Tuberculosis Program 🙂
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/statements/2014/glenn-thomas/en/
Sorry about calling him a “researcher”. Even to be a spokesperson for WHO he most likely has a medical/biologist background. Right?
Its all good. It’s open source, we are presented information and then we analyze it. At the end of the day, all we really see is what we want to see. Browsing the comments of that video, some people claim that his position as a spokesperson is just a cover story. For them it just confirms what they already believe.
Here is another link to DAHBOO77 re MH17….it shows the radar evidence that there was a Singapore Airlines that intersected MH17 at the exact moment of the crash:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ84OmPprJM
I do wish that DAHBOO77 would be more explicit at what he keeps calling a “smoking gun”. He never spells out the exact implications of this…but using my own common sense I am surmising that the Singapore Airlines “intersection” was somehow used to cover up the “shutting off of the transponder” of MH17. I guess the theory is that there was no “crash” of MH17. What happened is that there was a pre-planned ground explosion of an airplane filled with dead bodies…made to look like an airplane crash. Then, MH17 (under a new radar tag) simply flew on its way. Since the beginning there has been concern about the lack of evidence of a mid-air explosion…although I believe there were some witnesses on the ground who said there was.
Perhaps, like others, I am simply suffering from “False Flag Fatigue” and can’t bring my mind to “get into the heads” of the perps anymore to speculate on their methods and motives.
I was subscribed to DAHBOO77’s channel for a while, but I unsubscribed, precisely for this reason. He puts up new scary video’s 3 times a day, which really contributed to my “False Flag Fatigueâ€. I feel that he just puts out every scary story he can find with words like BREAKING or SHOCKING in the video title. Where does he get his info? He doesn’t have access to special sources, he just scans the internet like the rest of us.
He doesn’t really provide evidence for his stories, he just zooms in on the fear aspect. There’s no context or philosophy, just scary stories. I’ve grown very suspicious of channels that propagate fear.
This could be a deliberate attempt at disinformation, but more likely he is in it for the money. He has over 100k subscribers and he puts ads on every video. You can make a decent living this way.
Hi Bart:
Thanks for your comments. We could have another thread devoted to bloggers–their methods and motivations. My POV is that we all have different roles and strengths in this “business” of posting on the Internet. DAHBOO77 tells me about “bombshells” and “smoking guns”. I like to know about these things but I don’t necessarily accept his information at face value…all reports (including mine) need to be supported by other sources and cross-checked. The truth MAY be a grey area lying somewhere in the middle…which is why, I guess, James hit on this idea of having a place to post just about anything on the topic.
gc
Hmm, that organ trafficking story put some really bad idea’s in my head about motives to capture a plane full of people.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/18/375794/russia-to-request-mh17-probe-report/
Russia is asking for an interim report on MH17….nice to see that someone is still interested in finding out what happened in that shoot down of a Malaysian passenger plane with the deaths of 298 passengers on board.
Don’t think they would be pressing so hard if they had anything to do with it.
http://phys.org/news/2014-08-conspiracy-theorists-wont-mh17-mh370.html#nwlt
This view is from an anti-conspiracy theory observer….saying in effect there are times when “a cigar is just a cigar”.
I’m posting it because it contains a good compilation of the various theories.
Hi Greencrow, I sent you an email earlier today regarding the project for the next podcast. Did you receive it?
James: I sent you an e-mail in response re podcast thanks.
@ Greencrow : I doubt that the airplane was filled with dead bodies.
Being from The Netherlands and having acquaintances who knew several victims, knowing they where leaving on holiday that day makes it hard to believe that story. And unfortunately, they are really dead.
There could be another angle, i’m open for everything if facts are presented.
Although, knowing that the Dutch government has identified around 170+ victims now, i cant tell you if for example they have been identified as of yet.
http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/come-clean-on-malaysias-trade-with-israel-says-pkr-mp
Malaysia is critical of the US and Israel and is pro-Palestine. But in an article a few weeks later, Malaysia’s relationship with the US has been upgraded. We can read between the lines here, no doubt.
Off on a little tangent here, but:
http://english.wafa.ps/index.php?action=detail&id=24226
There are lots of articles here about Japan’s support for Palestine as well. We know the technology exists to trigger an earthquake and an ensuing tsunami.
.
More from the Dutch investigation
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/fm/Quenstions_and_answers_investigation_MH17.pdf
Will the Dutch Safety Board be publicly releasing the content from the Cockpit Voice Recorder and the Flight Data Recorder?
Investigative materials and sources of information used by the Dutch Safety Board in its investigations are protected by law. Only information relevant to determining the cause of the MH17 crash will be included in the final report. The available investigative information will not be released publicly in their entirety.
Potential loop hole for hiding the inconvenient truth – and still no mention of the ATC data.
Perhaps this has been posted on this thread already – but here is an interesting interview with Ray McGovern, a 27-year veteran CIA analyst: http://thiscantbehappening.net/node/2423
the audio: http://prn.fm/cant-happening-080614/
Not exactly the topic of this thread, but even The Council of Foreign Relations now admits that the Ukraine “crisis” should be blamed of the west: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault
Here’s a link from Global Research that contains some information I hadn’t read elsewhere… at least I don’t think it’s in James’s detailed report: This suggests that this was a purposeful attempt to create a false flag event and it failed. Global Research showed pictures of the cockpit some weeks ago that suggested that guns were aimed directly at the cockpit, the firepower coming from both sides. Witness accounts, however, spotted one fighter jet in close proximity to the Malaysian airliner, not two. But then this account mentions that the airliner suddenly veered to the left, apparently after being hit on the right. It is suggested that this may have been a purposeful and final attempt by the conspirators to make good on their plan, and that the airliner was finally brought down by a Buk missile positioned by Ukrainian forces in the area where they hoped to realize their faked plan. http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag/5393317
I was not able to stay focused reading this–someone else who continues to be very interested in the demise of this airliner, please help me out. I was haunted by the sense that the pilots could see clearly what was happening and may have been trying to escape. In any case, this is horrific, and whoever did it should face harsh justice. I went to the JofFA yesterday to see if there was any retraction of all that BS they were writing for at least three weeks — and didn’t see any, but was happy to read above that the CFR agrees that it was the West’s fault. However, if that refers to the Mearsheimer article, it’s a very tentative admission; elsewhere, they seem to be spouting the same trash.
Finally, the interim report from the Dutch Safety Board:
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf
Most of the report is devoted to dispell aircraft malfunction or crew mistakes, but is still very interesting. All recordings end at 13:20:03 UTC, while Dnipropetrovsk ATC was talking to them (in what I suppose was one-way radio).
The preliminary conclusions, according to the press release:
“Flight MH17 with a Boeing 777-200 operated by Malaysia Airlines broke up in the air probably as the result of structural damage caused by a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside.[…] There are no indications that the MH17 crash was caused by a technical fault or by actions of the crew.”
“The cockpit voice recorder, the flight data recorder and data from air traffic control all suggest that flight MH17 proceeded as normal until 13:20:03 (UTC), after which it ended abruptly. [T]he communications among the crew members […] recorded on the cockpit voice recorder revealed no signs of any technical faults or an emergency situation. Neither were any warning tones heard in the cockpit that might have pointed to technical problems. The flight data recorder registered no aircraft system warnings, and aircraft engine parameters were consistent with normal operation during the flight. The radio communications with Ukrainian air traffic control confirm that no emergency call was made by the cockpit crew. The final calls by Ukrainian air traffic control made between 13.20:00 and 13.22:02 (UTC) remained unanswered.”
“The pattern of wreckage on the ground suggests that the aircraft split into pieces during flight (an in-flight break up). Based on the available maintenance history the airplane was airworthy when it took off from Amsterdam and there were no known technical problems. The aircraft was manned by a qualified and experienced crew.”
“As yet it has not been possible to conduct a detailed study of the wreckage. However, the available images show that the pieces of wreckage were pierced in numerous places. The pattern of damage to the aircraft fuselage and the cockpit is consistent with that which may be expected from a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside. It’s likely that this damage resulted in a loss of structural integrity of the aircraft, leading to an in-flight break up. This also explains the abrupt end to the data registration on the recorders, the simultaneous loss of contact with air traffic control and the aircraft’s disappearance from radar.”
Just one of those knock on effects when the EU impose their sanctions. A little sign of frustration?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29294096?SThisFB
“Breaking News:
According to RT
http://rt.com/news/189428-germany-plane-sue-ukraine/
The families of the German passengers killed in MH17 are suing the Kiev government for not closing the airspace if they deemed it to be dangerous….and….and this is the delicious kicker….the German fraud investigation company is offering $30 million for evidence leading to conviction.
That might entice a few intrepid truth tellers out into the sunlight…of course they would have to assume new identities forever afterwards to avoid retribution.
Posted about MH17 earlier this morning, but it is still awaiting moderation.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-09/mh-17-false-flag-exposed-after-revelation-passenger-was-wearing-oxygen-mask
One of the passengers was wearing an oxygen mask, evidence of something happening on board before the flight went down?
In a False Flag (the govt really did it), they imm’y solve the crime for you: Think 9-11. They do this cuz they don’t want you to investigate who did it.
In a Hoax (a non-incident), they give you alternative explanations to make you vociferously sign on to one or another. The idea is to so passionately involve you in determining WHICH that you never ask WHETHER it happened at all.
LOOK at the scene & compare it to other plane crashes. http://killtown.911review.org/flight93/crash-comparisons.html Each of these crashes is unique, but universally when heavy objects fall from the sky they leave impact craters. They leave gullies that show their path; they gouge the earth. If an engine lands on concrete it breaks the concrete & goes partially through it. Heavy objects that fall from the sky cannot sit lightly on the soft farmland.
The crash was on a chicken farm that had industrial refrigeration for the bodies, and buildings & hangars for storing the parts– even a boxcar sitting on a RR siding. The miners who collected the bodies all worked for one mine owner.
At least some of the bodies may have been dummies: http://www.waldomason.com/
I see no way in which Russia did not know that this was a hoax, but she may have been promised that Ukrain w/B blamed or some other deal if she went along w it. It’s worth noting that the real sanctions were announced the morning after the Generals’ press conference, when they were unavoidably committed to its being a real crash.
I don’t know to what extent Putin & the Russians are free to act independent of the West or to what extent there is collusion. I remind you that US/EU removed the Turkish-border Patriots so that Russia could enter Syria & then “overlooked” the arrival of her materiel & construction until “too late.”
I remind you that US/EU imm’y confirmed that the Sinai crash of the Russian passenger liner was done by the terrorists. It is even more obviously a hoax. The soft sand takes tire marks, but there is not the slightest dent under even the one engine shown. This crash was for the purpose of bringing the Russian people along with the Russian escalation in Syria. Why did the West help pull it off?
In 2000 when Putin took office there were no Russian billionaires. Today there are at least 114. The 1% control 74% of the wealth of Russia. I cannot find a single Putin quote in which he criticizes the IMF/Fed system, neoliberalism, or the WTO. In fact he has praised them. When he praises the rule of law it is by way of praising the UN which is controlled by oligarchs including Rockefeller & which has an extraordinarily radical agenda regarding your liberty– but that’s for another day.
I’m sorry to go along at such length but often people are tempted to overlook visual evidence when they can’t “explain” it & perhaps in order to SEE it you must entertain the possibility that Putin is either controlled or not truly in opposition to the West.
Radar 24/7 listed the flight as cancelled. There was a NATO drill/practice using equipment which spoofs the GPS position of planes. A photo of an Israeli “passenger” taken at the departing aircraft was shown to be false. Strelkov reported that those who handled the bodies said they were long dead, bloodless, but those who handled the bodies were the mining company’s employees; I forget the owner’s name, a Ukrainian oligarch.
The following is an Anna News interview w “Alena” who says she arrived at the crash site within 20 minutes. Interview includes still photos as bad as watching an autopsy. If you are sensitive, do NOT watch the video. I have summarized below what Alena said. Do set the English subtitles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx3vwOWyCvM Anna News interview published Aug 29. 2014 with Alena Kochkina (Ðлёны Кочкиной) reporter who was at the site with the rescue team. Anna News is embedded w the Russian/Ukrainian fighters. She says the vapors of formaldehyde were very strong, the bodies were Asian, Malaysian w only 5-6 kids among those she saw. (It has been reported that half were children). All seemed long dead , “sodden” (w formaldehyde I guess). About 20 were clothed, rest naked. She felt they were “mannequins”, no blood. A reporter present at two other crashes said there had been a lot of blood at those two. The clothes in suitcases were all winter clothes, the cell phones’ SD cards showed last photos August – October 2013. 18+ БОИÐГ-777. УжаÑающие подробноÑти. 29.08.2014 / #MH17 – Anna News, August 29, 2014.
I don’t think she is literally saying they are manneqins, because her conscious mind rejects what her subconscious is telling her; she may not know of the lifelike dummies available.
Note the freshly-killed birds in this & other vids. The Yellow Macaw is perhaps meant to suggest the Phoenix or some sort of witchcraft?
a new documentary on MH-17, from mainly the Malaysian perspective. Some interesting new facts (new to me) ;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkDWwYk4-Ho&feature=youtu.be