This Is What A Demographic Crunch Looks Like
What comes to your mind when you hear the words “demographic crunch”?
If you’re like much of the general public, having been steeped their whole lives in propaganda pimping the debunked notion of an “overpopulation crisis,” you probably won’t even know what the term “demographic crunch” means.
But you, dear reader, are not part of the general public. You’re part of that special fraction of the population that has seen my work on the real nature of the demographic crisis that the developed world is facing (namely, underpopulation) and are already looking for the warning signs of this crisis.
So let me put the question to you: What are the warning signs of an underpopulation crisis? What does a “demographic crunch” look like, and how will it start to manifest itself in our day-to-day lives?
The answers to these questions may take you by surprise. They certainly surprised me.
Learn the surprising early warning signs of the crisis of shrinking population in the Land of the Rising Sun in this week’s edition of The Corbett Report Subscriber.
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The robot reminded me of the movie Ex Machina. This one explores the whole trans-human interaction that has a real zinger at the end.
For a 2014 movie, this science fiction thriller is certain to be come a instruction manual, much the same as the others we all know have become.
I recommend it, although there are some racy parts that don’t really define the movie that you could ff through.
Agreed. But it’s not a “feel good movie”. Not that it matters…
Also the Max Headroom episode “deities” from 1987 (The Vu Age Church)
Or you could go way back to 1927 with Metropolis which featured a robotic preacher.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLjD08VT3iI
Ex Machina? I love the dancing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7C69HqnV8s
Reminds me of Woody Allen’s “Sleeper” when he’s captured, wiped and re-educated by Our Leader’s government. He has to go to church (everyone is the same religion), which looks something like an old voting box, where he stands in front of the computer priest accompanied by the sounds of a bingo parlor and is absolved of his sins. Life imitating sci-fi art is coming together now.
There is some primo stuff on Corbett’s “Recommended”!
This is the exact right way to promote his (their) work!
Well done!
Considerably more than 3000 characters would be required to support the following assertions that I’m going, nonetheless, to make:
– The existence of life, as a force that opposes entropy, was a universal inevitability
– Evolutionary forces ensured the arrival of sentience
– Biological sentience guaranteed the eventual development of artificial intelligence
– Artificial intelligence would gradually outperform their biological creators
Every new creation / invention is a double edged sword. E = mc2 can be applied in a variety of ways. I am developing artificially intelligent strategies that outperform human beings. Why? Because I can. Because creation is stimulating and rewarding. Because improvements in quality and efficiency allow individuals and companies to outperform their competition. I am not a globalist illuminati. Neither am I a Luddite.
Evolution is a fundamental / universal force that, like it or not, involves competition, change, winners and losers. There can be no state of absolute stability; there is no magic finish line to be crossed… no ideal thermostat setting for global temperatures…
Big Bang => Life => Intelligence => A.I.
Artificial intelligence is an inevitability. So, too, were the wheel, the printing press, laser eye surgery, the atom bomb, the internet…… Why? Because an expanding universe exists and clocks continue to tick.
Don’t worry – we have more than enough artificial stupidity to counter A.I.!
” I am developing artificially intelligent strategies that outperform human beings. Why? Because I can. Because creation is stimulating and rewarding.”
“Why? Because I can”
Reasoning devoid of wisdom.
I guess some folks at Monsanto are also thinking similarly.
mik,
Why does an artist paint?
Why does a musician compose?
What drives a scientist to speculate about the Higgs Boson?
What compels an engineer to invent a moving kettle (aka steam locomotive)?
“Why? Because I can” is the attitude that separates man from all other life forms.
Fire burns
Knives cut
Wheels maim
Airplanes crash
AI threatens job security
Luddites fear change
Neither progress nor extinction can be stopped; they are forces of nature.
You are, of course, wise to suggest we proceed with caution. Balance, my friend. Too much caution stifles progress. Too little causes accidents:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/01/26/50-years-ago-three-astronauts-died-in-the-apollo-1-fire/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e26ef33aa02e
Why did Dave McGowan write?
http://whale.to/c/Dave%20McGowan%20-%20Wagging%20The%20Moon%20Doggie.pdf (McGowan mentions the death of the three astronauts only in passing on page 27, but that paragraph, when viewed in the context of the entire document, rings tragically true.)
Why did Grissom’s wife and son insist that Gus was murdered? http://whale.to/b/apollo_astronaut_was_murdered.html
m.clare,
Your first post
“Artificial intelligence would gradually outperform their biological creators”
your second post
“AI threatens job security”
Inconsistency and ignorance usually go hand in hand together.
I wonder why you didn’t spin my Monsanto sentence.
Let me help you:
Monsanto doesn’t exist anymore.
mik,
You have suggested I am:
– devoid of wisdom
– inconsistent
– ignorant
– a spin doctor
– share something in common with the Monsanto goons
I have unexpectedly and unintentionally touched a nerve and I apologize. Please help me understand what I said that evoked this reaction. I’m accustomed to unflattering labels but I would sincerely like to know how I’ve so completely missed the mark.
I’ve been rude particularly with my last exhibition regarding Monsanto. I apologize.
What you do on your job is your thing, you know your reasons why.
I found your attitude regarding AI problematic.
When I said some folks at Monsanto are thinking similarly I had scientists working there in mind. I’m sure most of them are not goons, they just do their job. They research, because they can, it’s creative and rewarding. I wouldn’t be surprised many don’t know anything about Asilomar Conference and did many things contrary to the conference recommendations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asilomar_Conference_on_Recombinant_DNA
Now we have GMO monstrosities all around, primarily because of some real goons at Monsanto. But these scientists can’t say they had no role.
With AI we are going towards google’s Selfish Ledger, autonomous killing machines, transhumanism…
You can’t be sure that your work won’t be forked, reused for some nefarious purposes.
Your first post doesn’t show me that you are aware thing can go wrong and will go wrong unless substantial change happens in our world.
Progress mantra is simply wrong. We should more often ask Why?????? and provide real answers. Looks like we left this question in childhood.
Btw. Do you know about AI stop button problem?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TYT1QfdfsM&
Too often I discover in my wake sentiments ranging from awkward silence to violent outrage. Tact, charm, good taste and social common sense are not my strengths. I thank you sincerely for responding.
Your concerns are valid. ICBM’s were created by human beings. Engineers cooked by steam aboard locomotives lead to specifications to prevent future accidents. 3 Appolo astronauts were cooked in a 100% oxygen atmosphere prior to Neil Armstrong’s historic walk.
It would be ideal if every safety concern could be foreseen but it simply isn’t possible. Every invention that we take for granted today arrived on the backs of overwhelming failures. The daredevil frontiersmen amongst us will continue to take risks and push boundaries. Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier in 1947; this barrier was neither the first nor the last.
There is no finish line. Perfection is a destiny that can be approached but never reached. Accidents happen. Millions of people die every year in automobiles and yet people are afraid of spiders.
Should human beings be equipped with off buttons? It would be a simple task to compile an extensive list of biological units who have committed atrocious acts.
Do I see you believe in relativism, everything is just relative, absolute doesn’t exist at all. Nasty disease of our time.
In the past accidents were followed by improvements, but you can’t extrapolate that in to the future, not with certainty and not without belief.
Now scientists are playing with DNA, with fundamentals of life. No one knows what kind of accidents are possible and their scale.
You said AI will gradually outperform their biological creators. What does this mean????
What could be the consequences in worst case scenario???
Certainly you don’t understand AI stop button problem.
Mike: I must say Rockefellers et.al strategy to destroy the family and separate the eternal youth from the care of the elderly here in the U.S. has been effective in segregating the collective wisdom from the creative energy of the children.
50 year old children who don’t have the wisdom to wash their hands after wiping their ass. Wisdom comes with age and we generally don’t care for the elderly as they do, say, in the orient. Its a very well crafted cultural reality here in the U.S. Its a horrorshow how we house the aged in death homes, isolated and their collective wisdom negelected. They can with immunity.
Police believe this man has had a bit too much to think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Xr4nfKsWk
I don’t know how to describe this as succinctly as it ought to be, just watch it, it’s some 7 minutes long.
Thanks for sharing this snapshot of authoritarian followers, mkey.
I first discovered–at least consciously–what authoritarian followers look like from this Mark Passio video made five years ago, when he and his wife were arrested for passing out flyers on public property near, of all places, the Liberty Bell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vS8VTZ4Sw
This video is really something.
That Brittish cop said something that was relevant, kept repeating it a few times “it’s above my head”.
Puts the word “agent” in whole new light, doesn’t it?
That’s a perfect example of compartmentalization!:
The two policemen get orders from their “inspector” and they don’t even know where he got them from.
This means they can’t know if their orders are actually legal.
They may suspect either way but they accepted that their orders are “good” as they follow them to the letter.
This order creates a dilemma for them as they approach their victim, which in this case
a) dares to speak up (and even films them!)
b) questions them
and
c) argues with them – where they admit several times that he has freedom of speech, that he didn’t something wrong etc.
In the end one of them even wrings out a half-assed apology.
I strongly suspect that this is not the usual process.
Perhaps because he had a camera, perhaps because he didn’t get excited.
But here’s what happens next:
They will NOT think about what he said and reflect on that, questioning their superiors and their motives. This only happens in Hollywood movies.
Instead, they will drive to the next victim their inspector selected, try to intimidate it and
– when they are successful (victim gets fearful) their feedback loop will be normalized: The cattle is silent again! The order then gets confirmed as “working well” which results in even less questioning it.
– when they aren’t successful (victim speaks up, gets angry) they will happily resort to stronger measures. This is why they became cops after all.
Depending how often they run into trouble the’ll grow more and more frustrated and will have less and less patience (although this one here was in front of a camera).
In other words:
Creating a standing order like this (driving to online users and “reminding them that their comments are visible”) is itself inciting hatred. Perhaps it is even meant to provoke “unstable fellows” so that they can be arrested?
Orders are not to be questioned.
The social contract is to be honoured.
Taxes must be paid.
Authority is to be revered.
Rulers are to be followed.
You can’t make up your mind on your own.
Cheer, consume, die.
I guess I better get some kind of Artificial Intelligence setup for posting comments.
Then the “thought police” can go after my A.I.
Oh wait…I need to develop an APP.
I can get rich.
People can use the APP to post comments, and never have to worry about thinking.
But this is a tough decision.
I need an APP to make decisions for me.
Ah!…here is an APP to make decisions for me…
So, asking the question: “Should I make an APP which posts comments for me?”
ANSWER: “As I see it, yes.”
http://www.ask8ball.net/
I think that 8ball knows what it’s talking about.
http://prntscr.com/mz1bdy
Efing bollocks ‘eh.
I saw something similar on Dave Cullen.
Our only option to comment freely now is via GAB and it’s browser plug-in Dissenter, found here https://gab.com
which is worse, bowing to a stone statue or an animated robot? not sure there is really a difference.
bowing to a stone statue or an animated robot…? Well, I guess the good news is that apparently Greta Thunberg is also an option.
Now THAT is funny, mbp.
Come to think of it, the holy robot’s face looks a bit like an older version of poor Greta.
And the holy robot’s face also looks rather stone-like — like cold marble!
No offense meant toward the Buddhist monks, who don’t realize that they are bowing to technocrats whose hands are like hooks and whose teeth are FAANGs.
“…technocrats whose hands are like hooks and whose teeth are FAANGs…”
good one.
Just so the above appears slightly less gratuitous…
https://plumvillage.org/news/buddhist-climate-change-statement-to-world-leaders-2015/
wisdompubs.org/sites/default/files/preview/Buddhist-Response-to-the-Climate-Emergency-Preview_0.pdf
Of course, when His Eminence Agga Maha Panditha Dawuldena Gnanissara Maha Nayaka Thera, Mahanayaka Thero, The Supreme Prelate of the Amarapura Maha Nikaya, Sri Lanka, signs such a petition I’m all ears!
Obviously! Especially when it pertains to the physics involved in Climate Science!
His opinion counts maybe even as much as Oprah Winfrey’s!
“Greta” is at least great marketing!
In fact Angela Merkel quickly commented that the demonstrations by German pupils where steered by the “Russians”!
https://www.rt.com/news/451656-merkel-russia-climate-protest/
You can see that this tactic is working very well when you consider that Merkel *never* comments quickly on anything.
She always waits to see where the wind blows but her comment here was incredibly rash!
Merkel is just inline with the latest European Parliament (useless overpaid debate club) recommendation from 13 March 2019.
EU representatives, that actually decide about nothing of importance, would like to have something like 1984-Ministry-of-truth.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+TA+P8-TA-2019-0187+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN
> Merkel is just inline with the latest European Parliament (useless overpaid debate club) recommendation from 13 March 2019.
That may be the case but that’s certainly not the reason.
Merkel gives a shit what the EP thinks as she is the one who orders most of what gets decided in Brussels – via the EU Commission (which also gives a shit about the EP).
Of course her “decisions” come from other people, but that’s beside the point in this argument.
Still, it’s still highly unusual for her to make such a rash (and ridiculous) statement that quickly to a recent development. IIRC she made her statement practically immediately after the pupils got into the media, shortly after the Greta phenomenon.
Her normal modus operandi is to wait until most of the “warriors” have been killed or wounded on the battlefield (of politics) and then she knifes the remaining ones either in the back or cuts their throats – to collect their war trophies without taking risks.
There are voices that say that Merkel gets more and more erratic after her announced exit from politics in 2021 but I don’t see that.
The language of the recommendation is very broad (it boils down to “the Russians are the main culprits for everything”) and more or less resembles the NATO or US perspective. It’s a white book for a new Cold War, speaking of “strategic communications” (=propaganda), camouflaging itself with the EED (European Endowment for Democracy) – similar to the US-NED.
It could be that Merkel tried to make up some common ground with the US because her position on the Russian pipeline into Germany hasn’t changed (to the US wishes).
I didn’t mean that EP can influence Merkel in any way.
Merkel spoke at Munich Security Conference and she had to show that she is aware of “dangers”. In my opinion that’s all and nothing more.
EP on the other hand has “legitimacy” from European voters that will be flocked again in two months. I hope EP elections will bring new record low participation rate.
To Many in politics , everyday is not always a scripted event. Sometimes the knee jerk real person shines through, to the sheer terror of, as you said,
” others”.
We hear in the heartland are represented by such a knee jerk politician. Hon.Sen.James Inhoff.
His knee jerk happened years ago in the Senate when the global warming mantra was in its infancy. His now famous response to the new con, which he had not been in-line/aware of at the time , ” Global warming? It’s a hoax!”
Hearkening Bach to Rahm EManuel famous saying.
The unfiltered mind is such a terrible thing to waste.
Apparently, James Inhofe sure is a cracker. The name is known but I had not looked in depth at that guy before.
However, but he turns up where the ugliest stones are getting turned:
– Getting campaign money from oil & gas companies: Check!
– Comparing the EPA to the Gestapo: Check!
– Defending Abu Ghraib: Check!
– Promoting torture: Check!
– Against same-sex marriage: Check!
– Increasing spending on the MIC: Check!
– Sanctioning Iran: Check!
But following the “Global Warming is a Hoax”-bit (which he still maintains, BTW) leads to a certain Frank Luntz – who was the guy responsible for changing “global warming” to “climate change” as it sounds less drastic.
In any case it demonstrates how finely measured they try to control the public opinion: The public has to be held in fear but not so much that it develop panic and becomes unproductive.
It’s like spraying the right amount of nicotine on chicken to kill parasites but not the chicken themselves – to not stop egg production.
Luntz is called a polster by Wikipedia but he really is a special kind of marketeer: an expert of framing.
“Framing” is now a publicly known technique in Germany after it was discovered that one of the biggest TV networks actually bought a “Framing Manual” to teach them how to deceive the audience the best. It’s German author, Elisabeth Wehling, of course, was educated in the USA.
Like with Luntz the most interesting thing about this framing business is that in most cases the recipients of the message pay for it (tax payer money, the propaganda tax we Germans have to pay for public TV/radio broadcasting etc.).
brent.b,
Difference? Depends on perspective.
Why some people have a need to bow down in front of something to show their worship?
They could worship without these gestures and honest gurus say to followers that faith is more important than ritual.
Bowing to stone statues is very old ritual and for many people ritual is as important as faith, they can’t separate them.
To put a robot in front of worshipers is a perversion of ancient rituals.
I hope video from Kodaiji Temple is just sick PR stunt.
I’m not sure this is about over or under population. Population and age distributions change. I think it’s more about supply and demand and adjusting to Japan’s shifting age distribution. A similar phenomenon is coming to the Western part of the world in the near future. Most of the West is at or close to zero net population growth, discounting immigration. This is not a bad thing, but it is a shift. Humans can adapt or resist, our choice.
Lower population = more space per capita = you’re farther from the shops!
> Lower population = more space per capita = you’re farther from the shops!
Then they’ll sell you faster (or more comfy) cars! 😉
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4255510/
This article lays out to description of the problem but then puts forward bogus solutions that rely on government intervention. When most likely, the opposite of what is required.
This is important stuff James, thanks. Food for thought. I am an Ãœber/Lyft driver currently living in Seattle. Day in, day out, I give rides to people of all nationalities that work for Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Boeing, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, etc. Their long and tired faces, together with their mechanical, scripted, and repetitive comments, on the weather most of the time, I know are subconsciously affecting me in ways that only in my dreams I may be able to decipher some day. So I constantly wonder about whether this so-called “hi-tech” environment we live in, is in reality nothing more than a glorified electronics milieu in which coding plays a crucial role–coding and software for which millions of modern-day office soldiers around the globe slave for reasonably-appropriate salaries. But once this needed software or programming can be written and maintained by machines, guess where, or in what dumpster, all these good soldiers are going to end up. In the very same dumpster I’ll be buried when a driverless car finally replaces me and I’m no longer needed.
OhOneOh, do you ever try to engage your Uber and Lyft riders who work for the FAANGs in meaningful conversations, like the ones we have in this comments section? If so, can you share any of their more memorable responses?
Do you have to pretend not to know that the Gateses’ philanthropic work is hardly good for humanity?
OneOhOne,
Interesting.
It would be cool to have a small printed sign in the back seat which says: “Recommended online documentary: ‘How Big Oil Conquered the World’“.
A couple recent anecdotes
Thursday, I was at the locksmiths where three or four employees were working. I needed a key and also the battery changed in my car’s remote, door-unlocker keychain. When the fellow was testing if the re-battery-ed remote worked, he beeped it and a device on the counter blinked. He told me about remotes which could open any garage doors.
As the conversation went on, we talked about how Smart devices and FAANG spy on you. The locksmith said, “Yeah. It is like Aldous Huxley’s ‘Brave New World'”. That was my cue. I told him that he has got to see the online FREE documentary “How Big Oil Conquered the World”.
Friday late, an engineer/architect came by with this huge ‘architect paper printer’ which he wanted to donate. We chat as we lug this thing.
I asked him if he has ever heard of “Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth”.
He goes, “What?’
I repeat the question.
He again says, “What?”
I am thinking that my Texas accent might be too strong…you know mush mouth style.
So, I repeat the question very slowly, and then go into the three skyscrapers which fell on 9/11.
He brightens up. He starts to tell me about Building 7 and then goes on about the Pentagon plane scenario sounds weird and the phone calls from passengers, etc. etc.
When he left we had exchanged names and were shaking hands and having that glow of joy at finding a new friend who shares common ideas.
By the way, I also encouraged him to watch Corbett’s “How Big Oil Conquered the World”, and that he might want to check out some of Jame’s videos about 9/11.
HRS, will you be in touch with the engineer/architect again? If so, could you ask him if he has signed AE911Truth’s petition — and if he hasn’t, could you direct him to it? Sounds like it’d be his cup of tea.
How great that you had two back-to-back conversations that put a spring in your step and a gleam of hope in your eyes! 🙂
Gill said that he’d drop by again to talk some more. It was closing time when we first met. Nice guy. I like him.
He might be up for signing. He is close to retirement, which sometimes makes a difference.
Yes, close to or in retirement makes a HUGE difference for a lot of A/Es, doesn’t it, HRS. Let us know if and when you’ve accomplished that mission, please and thank you.
It is so satisfying to make such a connection, to feel you’ve had an effect–have assisted Awakening. Kudos. It doesn’t happen often.
James, now you’ve gotten me hooked on John Titus, who you featured in your Recommended Viewing under the title of his newest video, “We Used to Throw Criminals Off.”
I’ve already watched all six of his BestEvidence videos, including both documentaries; each is a treasure trove, reminiscent of your own outstanding work.
For those of us who don’t subscribe to YouTube channels, I hope you’ll plug each of the installments of John’s new “Mafiacracy” series as they appear.
And maybe you’ll interview him sometime?
The Socialists Always Come For the Kids, Eventually (recommended reading)
I agree that some ideas proposed by “socialist” AOC are bad and dangerous. But this has to be addressed properly not with anti-socialist (socialism by American definition) ranting like Jeffrey A. Tucker did (otherwise I have some respect for him).
In the article “Mises the Prophet” is quoted:
“Without coercive regulation of the growth of population,†he wrote, “a socialist community is inconceivable.”
History disproves him!
Yugoslavia was a socialist country with one political party (communists of course) without any coercive demographic policy.
Surprise for most people:
some people describe Yugoslavia as market-socialism, social ownership of the means of production and self-management within firms. State didn’t regulate everything, there was some kind of market, small privately owned enterprises were allowed in some places even encouraged.
Then Jeffrey introduces nazis into debate. Why?
Maybe he wanted to paint hell so his paradise will look more beautiful.
I’m sure Jeffery has better texts unlike this black & white one that serves no good.
Before Yugoslavia was bombed nearly back into the Stone Age the Serbs were also painted as Nazis, allegedly mass-murdering the Bosnians and even operating concentration camps!
German vice-chancellor Joschka Fischer (very popular in Germany at the time but an asshole of the highest order) is famous for his exclamation that there mustn’t be concentration camps on European soil ever again.
Later we found out that the mass graves weren’t the Serbs doing (the Bosnians collected fallen soldiers and civilians and put them into mass graves or simply on heaps to blame the Serbs) and that concentration camps didn’t exist…
But, hey, it was the 90ies! Other nations were fooled by the daughter of a Kuwaiti ambassador at the time…
And what about Fischer? I think it’s likely that he has been a CIA asset since the 70ies and was even involved (at the sidelines) in the murder of at least one German politician.
I knew ZERO about the Baltic region before this Global Research piece written by Prof. Michel Chossudovsky landed in my inbox this morning: https://www.globalresearch.ca/nato-s-war-of-aggression-in-yugoslavia-who-are-the-war-criminals
The author resurrected his 20-year-old article, written at the height of NATO’s bombing of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, to commemorate the starting date of this war of aggression: March 24, 1999.
It’s Balkans not Baltic.
From Chossudovsky:
“The demonization of Slobodan Milsovic (Milosevic corr.mik) by so-called “Progressives†has served over the years to uphold the legitimacy of the NATO bombings.”
Milosevic was a mf demon, he started horror show decade before nato aggresion.
Read this one to get more context:
http://en.kalitribune.com/echomaniacs-alternative-media-as-postmodern-propaganda-pt-1/
mik, after reading the Kali Tribune piece, which was way over my head, I must humbly retreat to my former position of admitting that I know ZERO about the Balkans (thanks for correcting my incorrect “Baltic region”).
The one thing I DID learn is not to accept as gospel absolutely everything that comes from the lips and pens of certain alternative news sources. Since I never would’ve known this had I not innocently/ignorantly included that Global Research link, I can’t say I’m sorry I made that mistake. As the saying goes, “Live and learn.” Or, in this case, “Link and learn.”
I appreciate your help, mik.
I have read only about a third of that essay, but I guess it could be summed up as “vile Serbs trump all other rationales” type of text.
I’m of course not stating that there weren’t, quite probably completely insane, elements in Serbian politics (and still are) but the same can be said about ALL sides involved in the Balkans, all of them playing on emotions of those who are stuck the deepest in the blind hate of their mortal enemy; those who have been fully indoctrinated from their infancy, not only by the state but also further promulgated by their surrounding.
There were a lot of zealots who stood to gain a whole lot by the breakup of Yugoslavia and so it broke up. There wasn’t one single force driving the series of events.
I’ll return to that text later, hopefully it will explain why, for instance, Vukovar fell. Or how was it possible for heavily armoured and entrenched SAO Krajina to be “liberated” in one fell swoop. And why was a triparty “solution” implemented in Bosnia. And what were all of them highly trained mujahedeen warriors doing in Bosnia? Weren’t their appetites for dissolving ex-communist/socialist federations sated with the breakup of the Soviet Union? And, oh yes, why did the war last as long as it did, to be later ended in just a few bold efforts?
Anyway…
“I have read only about a third of that essay, but I guess it could be summed up as “vile Serbs trump all other rationales†type of text.”
No it’s not. It provides more context and accurate chronology of the events that is not well known and understood outside of ex-Yu. It puts the blame correctly on Milosevic.
I was waiting to get mkey’s take, because he is in that neck of the woods.
To me, any time there is armed conflict, there is lots of insanity and confusion.
It is like a spousal argument built in the magnitude of a hydrogen bomb. Ain’t no one gonna figure it out, nor really win.
You can’t have “us” without “them” and that’s what this basically is. US congressional military complex invented the cassette bombing democracy and love spreading from a safe distance of several thousand miles, in so remote areas 99% of citizenry couldn’t even pin it on a map. We’re talking about a large pin and a small map.
None of this is ever going to get sorted, just look at the history. The cartoon villainry of Hitler and his rabid nazis, the “their PT boat attacked our 100x larger destroyer and couldn’t even put a dent in it but we went in and massacred them anyway”, the “north fought the south over slavery”, the “Egypt sank USS Liberty”, the “Gavrilo Princip started WW1” and on and on ad infinitum.
People will remember what they want to remember, logic be damned.
Milosevic certainly wasn’t roses and kisses kind of fella, but his role is overstated. I mean, look at how long it took for “allies” to subdue Serbia militarily, less than 3 months, while Serbes were quite smart and played hide and seek with US forces for quite a while. Not to forget they even managed to down one of them state of the art, a few billion a pop, stealth bombers with a hand operated rocket launcher.
The point being, if so many people were actively threatened by vile Serbs led by psycho war master Milosevic, why did the war last 5 years if it could have been wrapped up in a few months? The world needed to be outraged, borders needed redrawing with a handful of immature states left (well, Slovenia not included) in the wake of the old federation.
You know, mkey relativise too much (like “Milosevic certainly wasn’t roses and kisses kind of fella, but his role is overstated”). Many things are well known, I provided link to well documented article. But still it’s his word against mine and I guess he has better rating.
Since you like anecdotes let me give you first account completely crazy story from Bosnian guy from Bihać. Bihać was surrounded for three years.
I asked him how did you survived. He said:
It was kind of different. There was a marketplace, Serbs were selling, Bosnians buying. If you had money or something valuable you could buy anything.
When he noticed my astonishment he continued:
We played cards with Serbs occasionally. And once a Serbian guy said to him that they will get reinforcements and no cards for some time because they will fight. And they did.
mik,
I meant no disrespect to your data and comments above.
You often leave some great comments and interesting perspectives.
Frankly, for me, in the U.S., that conflict is something I know little about, other than things were a confused mess.
I still have that take.
I think all wars are that way.
I feel for those who suffered as a result of the conflict. But I have very little interest in researching all the fine points.
I just happened to read the comments on this thread.
I like to see what is on people’s mind.
I knew mkey lived near the neighborhood and was waiting to see what he said.
You can have your take.
mkey his.
My take…I still think all wars are a confused mess.
War is a mess no doubt and this one was no different. It’s a crime in itself therefore talking about war crimes somehow diminishes real nature of war.
Article I’ve posted talks mostly about genesis of that war and it is very clear who was who, no place for doubt. Without MiloÅ¡ević there would probably be no TuÄ‘man, Croatian nationalistic counterpart, who came to power later after the first multiparty elections by playing on fear (not unsubstantiated) and nationalistic sentiments. With him the stage was set for war.
I have a need to be vocal when I see meddling with history that is part of my life, I know tons of stories from people that were involved.
And it’s not that I’m defending anyone because “being involved by nationality”. I’m Slovenian.
mik,
I appreciate this recent paragraph / comment.
It broadens my perspective of your perspective, and overall understanding of the conflict
What you’ve said about that war is pretty much wrong, kind of white washing the Serbian side.
Concentration camps existed and mass graves were one of Serbian crimes, maybe Bosnians added some corpses.
Destruction of Serbia is nothing compared to destruction that happened before in Bosnia and Croatia.
See also my reply to QC above.
My original posting wasn’t meant as a general posting on that war, comprising the entire time frame from 1991-2001 (at least according to the definition in Wikipedia). This is not possible in a single post.
I admit, however, that I was unclear, if unintentional, as far as timing is concerned as Fischer made his statement near the end of the conflict.
The reason for my posting wasn’t to diminish the war crimes that were performed (they were!) but that they were instrumentalized by Joschka Fischer in May 1999 to legitimize a war against international law.
The bombing campaing was already underway (March – August 1999) and had no UN authorization. This is a major difference to the 1995 bombings that resulted in the Dayton peace agreement.
So Fischer tried to drum up public support for the German participation by claiming to “prevent another Ausschwitz” – allegedly planned by Milosevic. This illegal war (by international law) was in his eyes the only way to prevent this and therefore justified – if even the war was against international law.
This was especially puzzling as the Greens were totally anti-war before this. This change is in fact still being debated today and held against this party (since then they are sometimes called “olive greens”, like the color of army suits).
Fischer was careful in his statement, he isn’t an idiot, but the truth seems to be that at the time there weren’t camps that could be classified as concentration camps (if we accept the definition of Human Rights Watch). Otherwise they would (could) have been used in the propaganda.
The propaganda in Germany never got tired of mentioning the Srebenica massacre – but that happened in 1995. Four years earlier.
After the peace agreement of Daytona in November 1995 a time of relative peace ensued but then something happened:
In January 1999 the Racak massacre was reported, with 45 Albanians killed, including a 12-year-old child and three women.
This “unspeakable atrocity” and “crime very much against humanity” was the excuse for this new NATO bombing campaign.
What was the result of that bombing campaign? Wikipedia writes:
“Human Rights Watch concluded “that as few as 489 and as many as 528 Yugoslav civilians were killed in the ninety separate incidents in Operation Allied Force”. Refugees were among the victims.”
“According to one Serbian claim, NATO tactics sometimes included second post strikes in populated areas, with the aim of destroying rescue and medical teams.”
However, when one sees both sides of the story more than a few questions pop up. Especially when one reads the forensic reports:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C4%8Dak_massacre
So it’s the same old Story: When a new Hitler kills people it’s BAD BAD BAD but when NATO comes to the rescue and breaks ten times more eggs it’s only “love bombing”.
The article you linked to gives background to the conflict but mostly appears to serve the goal to discredit the article published by Global Research – without really discrediting much of the information given in that article.
In other words: It’s mostly an opinion piece with many diffamations.
“It’s mostly an opinion piece with many diffamations.”
You didn’t read the article carefully. It is well documented article that provides Accurate chronology of the events and I’m 100% sure about that because I live here, I was old enough at the time to be fully aware but thanks god I wasn’t involved in any way. Regarding defamation, it’s more about authors style (and he was pissed and so do I when history is fabricated).
Global research article provides no context and therefore they can conclude Milosevic was demonized to be later bombed. No mentioning Milosevic confiscated Yugoslavian army and in the beginning of nineties committed aggression on Bosnia and Croatia with tens of thousands dead and huge destruction.
Without context one can fabricate history, intentionally or unintentionally.
All sides committed crimes, no doubt, but there is a lot of untruth about this also. When I said Bosnians added some corpses I had Srebrenica on my mind.
I don’t know what exactly happened on Kosovo but be sure Milosevic was capable of anything, proved by history.
Hey, we are on the same side here: Peace! 😉
Perhaps the article you linked to has more merit than I initially saw. I’s certainly a hard read, his thoughts jump around quite a bit, the sentences are very long & nested.
As a non-native English speaker I always try to avoid that.
Style aside…
I had the luck to not be personally involved in a war, yet, or its immediate consequences. Other people are less lucky, obviously.
But the people never get to decide about war. It’s always the same select few that do, often times not even elected.
And even if the people do actually get to decide (for example the BREXIT), then the powers work to turn the result around if they don’t like the result…
This is practically the same with all populaces. They have nothing to win from war/conflict. They never have, only few people profit. So the common people get manipulated to do “their duty”, because of “patriotism” or “humanity”.
With Yugoslavia it certainly was the same. In the end a country was destroyed, more than a hundred thousand people dead (most of them soldiers but many civilians, too).
What annoys me most about Milosevic is that he died before the situation could come to a real conclusion – for the people.
After he died in his cell – and apart from some conspiracy theories the whole process just imploded. And with that I don’t suggest that the tribunal was fair & just (it probably wasn’t).
At least your posting – and the anniversary of the 1999 bombings (many articles are coming out right now) – gave me the opportunity to read-up on that conflict.
I consider this valuable.
I never know what to think about these death count figures. I wouldn’t trust them as far as I can throw them on a general basis. Too much politics riding on the number being as large as it possibly can.
But, as long as we’re talking about large numbers, let me give you one which is factually correct and provably so: there are (today, 25 years after the war ended) more than 500.000 (yes, half a million on a 4 million population) “veterans” with a special (economically and otherwise, I’ll abscond getting into some gory details for the moment) status in Croatia. Believe it or not, the number has been on a slow but steady increase over the decades.
I don’t know how do these numbers fair in Serbia or Bosnia, but this figure gives you a pretty good picture on how many Croatians decided to treat the war – as a good business opportunity to be used to get a status boost.
Now, I’m not saying people who put everything on the line and had bullets zapping in the immediate vicinity of their heads don’t deserve just compensation, not at all. What I am saying is that had Croatia had 500.000 to 600.000 infantry in its war for independence, Croatia (with the disposition of some political elements at the time) would have a border with Greece today.
Yes, article is not an easy read but none of this author is.
I’ve seen a lot of bad articles about that war, most of Globalresearch are bad. Except the linked article I don’t know of any other good English article (not that I’ve been systematically looking for them).
Whenever I said Serbs I mean a nation duped by Milošević and clique. Unfortunately I meat just few of them who recognized a nation was duped. Also other involved nations hardly recognize atrocities have been committed in their name.
It’s sad people mostly don’t understand how propaganda is functioning so they are easy target.
In my opinion it is of utmost importance to know correct version of history, at least that that is publicly available.
I have a question about Yu-wars no one had asked yet.
It’s well known fact there is animosity between right-winger Serbs and Croats (duped ones) at least from the second world war. Once MiloÅ¡ević started his nationalistic rise it was guaranteed war was possible outcome. And yet, I don’t remember anyone from international community warning that he is dangerous. He was left to proceed on his way. I don’t buy no one was able to foresee what could happen.
I’m speculating, was there some “US ambassador April Glaspie moment” also in the game?
p.s. I have suspicions about MiloÅ¡ević’s death. He was left to self medicate. He had drugs for heart disease that can be used for suicide. I have a feeling this is not standard procedure for high value prisoners. Suspicious.
He certainly knew things that would at least embarrassed many people and he had nothing to lose.
mkey,
veterans, wauu, that really fits well to the topic.
Please tell to the people Croatia has also Milan Bandic not so wealthy clone of Trump, Berlusconi…. They are certainly interested.
“….Croatia (with the disposition of some political elements at the time) would have a border with Greece today.”
Please name those political elements that were striving for border with Greece.
@mik:
About the “April Glaspie” effect: Interesting that you bring that up! I always wondered how Milo could be so successful in that short time.
If we have a look at the maps that were shown at the link you provided one has to wonder how much success this was.
I can only recommend the Wikipedia article on Glaspie, by the way (I was familiar with the effect she had but had forgotten her name): It’s astonishing how history is constantly being rewritten, especially by the “winners” (in many cases the Americans and the Brits). After all, a slight document falsifying is less problematic than billions in punishment payments, eh?
@mkey:
You are probably right about the victim number being dead wrong but that is what I could come up in that short time.
But the veteran scheme you write about isn’t really surprising: If you give people the ability to game a system then the people will do exactly that for personal gain – regardless if the people are rich or only “little people”, especially, if the government is seen as corrupt.
You then get a kind of “If they do it then I’m allowed, too” spiel as a result.
(Of course the rich are better educated and better connected to have more opportunities to cheat)
The same “morality” can be seen in Greece where people happily collect pension money for their long dead parents – just because they can.
This is not to shit on the Greek – they are getting f’ed royally right now – but only to illustrate the point.
It’s apparently universal behaviour and can be found practically everywhere in the world. It seems to me that it’s more likely that people don’t cheat when they a) are treated fairly and b) more importantly: both the detection and conviction rates are high enough.
Calibrator, I didn’t intend to denigrate your ability to locate “correct” figures. You could probably spend a lifetime and not find them. It’s always left to the people of “authority” to estimate and abuse these numbers. That is the way of war, were instigators to be held culpable, they would certainly estimate on the lower end of the spectrum.
I mentioned that incredible number of 500.000 (or 1:8) 25 years after the war because I find it particularly obnoxious how many of these people (we are talking about 12%+ of population, total) are ready to leech of from the rest of us because of their abject lack of morals, honour and common decency. Now, to be explicit about this, I know about several people who had left a marked presence on the battlefield (we’re talking about battle-hardened and consequently damaged individuals) who are not among those 500.000 because they find it unbecoming.
Put into context, this ratio would bring the total veterans in the US to about 40 million. Even with all the wars, the US government is instigating all over the world, 40 million veterans sound and reads like an impossibly large figure. How many Americans took part in WW2, about 16 million?
Battle experience means nothing when you know the right people in the party and the commission which will stamp some papers and make you the beneficiary for life, leeching off the tax loot. Lately, I have read a statement from one of the ministers about how once awarded privileged pensions can’t be abrogated. The “reporter”, obviously, didn’t bother asking why.
Rightly you say, this is going on, hand in hand, with the ethos of morally bankrupt times. I find it sickening down to the core, nonetheless.
“It is well documented article that provides Accurate chronology of the events and I’m 100% sure about that because I live here”
Watch that appeal to authority, it’s glaring.
Are you incapable to formulate some sentences supported by some facts so you resort to smearing, making things relative, introducing topics of minor importance (Croatian veterans)?
You still stand by the brainchild
“I have read only about a third of that essay, but I guess it could be summed up as “vile Serbs trump all other rationales†type of text.â€
You two have different divergent experiences. It quite interesting. I know virtually nothing of the region but from a ICOR contactor and the wife he brought back to the backwater of Oklahoma. She was drop dead gorgeous blond. And that accent. They had stories . Can you tell me what your perceptions of the English role and Clinton’s roll from the ground veiw, I assume was all to do with Rothschild aka City of London’s and Milosevic. Am I even in the ball park?
generalbottlewasher,
About foreign involvement
I have a feeling MiloÅ¡ević got green light for his actions from abroad but I’ve seen no actual proof of it. Certainly he was not hampered in any way at the beginning.
Tuđman, Croatian counterpart, was nobody, a retired army general, but he came out as winner on first croatian multiparty elections. His party got a lot of money supposedly from croatian emigration but might actually be dirty money from foreign interests. USA helped to build croatian army and also later during war operations.
Gulf states helped Bosnia a lot, also with mujaheddins.
Certainly united Yugoslavia was not in best interest of NATO, small banana or vassal states better suit their interests.
mik, you need to work on your debating skills. I won’t let you practice on me, though.
general, there’s a template which was followed on many of these fronts. The way Milosevic was deposed fits the template for coloured revolutions. There is little doubt Soros and co. were involved; but even if you had 100% ironclad proof, what would you do with it?
Yugoslavia was ripe for splitting up (if for no other reason but because there were a lot of politicians who stood to benefit) but what’s questionable is whether or not the war was necessary, despite the nationalism. In my opinion, it was avoidable, like any other war basically. But war is good for business.
What I find particularly troubling is that most of these issues still float 25 years later. The toxic media space is full to the brim with post-WWII bullshit, forget about the war for independence, that one will stew on the crockpot for decades to come.
It’s the standard divide and conquer approach, one that works best when people are dumbed down to the maximum.
You might have objections about my debating skills, but this comes more as a problem of style not substance. It’s great when both converge (like JC) but if I have to choose in between, substance will always be the first.
In this conversation you often lack of substance (proper understanding of Milošević), you went to unnecessary digressions (veterans), you present speculations as facts (Yu was ripe for splitting) and more.
Although Milošević toppling was similar to color revolutions, he himself was not a usual dictator character. He was extremely bad, despicable, worst than majority of color targeted dictators. Serbia during his reign descended to indigence, despair, chaos.
Certainly no one was innocent during nineties horror years on Balkans, but Milošević was the most guilty no doubt and looking on his regime just trough NATO aggression perspective brings no justice to history.
If people produced and consumed locally, there shouldn’t be too few workers to service the consumers. Maybe we need more of this.
Looking into Davi Barker’s Authoritarian Sociopathy, I came across an article of his going back to 2013. An interesting finding from one of the experiments he cited was about two groups which were assigned as having “authoritative power”. One group was asked to describe another situation where they had authority; the other group was asked to describe an experience where they had illegitimate authority. Of these two groups, the one describing a past experience of illegitimacy was more likely to judge themselves harshly for their abuse of same, while the former group was indifferent of their abuses. “This discovery could be the silver bullet we’ve been looking for. The researchers speculate that the vicious cycle of power and hypocrisy could be broken by attacking the legitimacy of power, rather than the power itself,” says Davi. Following is an excerpt from the researchers:
http://dailyanarchist.com/2013/08/23/authoritarian-sociopathy/
So, laughing at tyrants isn’t just fun, it may actually do some good!
Dear Pearl, this has some huge possibilities and potential . I remember a free press that use to gossip, question and call out bad behavior here when we had two news sources in my little berg. All gone now, I do wonder what Form, is left for the gossips, and the average folk? We have no public access TV here either.
Indeed! The good news is that any person with a smart phone can record and upload any event (like the guy in mkey’s link above, who filmed the cops visiting his home, suggesting he modify his online speech. Surely that’s gone viral in that community and their local “authorities” are feeling the heat for their shocking audacity! If not, then I’m at a loss as to what will wake up the everyday guy and gal).
Regarding James’ article “This Is What A Demographic Crunch Looks Like”…
I have always enjoyed the way James writes. He’s a writer. A real writer.
But I gotta say, that this particular article had a personal flavor which made it all the more interesting and real. ANECDOTES from James…you know…the bit about cafes and routines of his life. I enjoyed that.
~~~
This “demographic crunch” and its effect on the economy seems very real to me. Way back around 2007 or 2008, when I listened to Lee Hamilton (of 9/11 fame) at a local North Texas university, he was pushing for more immigration into the U.S. It kind of puzzled me at the time, and I wondered what ulterior motives were afoot.
I understand the economics. More people (a million a year immigrating legally), then more consumers.
“More consumers in a consumer driven economy”, like the U.S.
Walmart probably enjoys this.
Demographics have really changed since 2008. A lot of folks from the Indo-Paki region, China, and parts of the Mideast have settled in the North Texas area. A lot.
The baby boomers are downsizing.
Millennials and younger folks are having a hard time making ends meet, especially with higher rents. Many kids under 30 are sharing an apartment or living with the parents.
Interesting times are ahead.