The Ugly Truth About the Minimum Wage
The economic ignorace of the “Let’s Raise the Minimum Wage” gang is matched only by their smugness. In their confused, economically-illiterate universe, you either advocate for an increase in the minimum wage or you hate poor people.
As anyone with an understanding of basic economics can tell you, this is precisely the opposite. As economists have discussed for years and study after study shows, minimum wage laws ultimately lower the earnings of the poorest members of the working poor and force mom and pops out of business in favor of the corporate chain mega-giants.
But there is something altogether darker to this story of the minimum wage than the perversity of its effects or the smugness of its proponents. The sad truth is that minimum wage laws were first discussed and advocated for by those who knew that it would make the poor even poorer and actively wished that to be the case.
Find out the true eugenics-steeped history of the minimum wage laws in this week’s edition of The Corbett Report Subscriber.
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vol 7 issue 25 (July 9, 2017)
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by James Corbett “OK, here’s an idea no one’s thought of before. You know how fast-food workers are organizing in the US right now to fight for a $15/hour minimum wage? That’s stupid. They’re still going to be just scraping by on a wage like that. So why not make it something that’ll really make a difference? Why not $150/hour? “Think about it: At $150/hour, they’ll have to work only a few hours a week to make the same money they’re making working full-time right now. Or if they continue to work full- time, then they’ll be earning a six-digit annual income! Pretty soon everyone will be rich! “Brilliant, right? Fight for $15? Pffffffffff, that’s for slaves. Fight for $150, that’s what I say!” You might think this is a parody of the Let’s Raise the Minimum Wage school of bad economics. You might even think it’s a sophisticated meta-parody of the people who parody the Fight for $15 campaign. But sadly, neither scenario is the case. This is the actual, honest-to-goodness “argument” of genuine economic illiterates like Vox.com “journalist” Matthew Yglesias, who dropped these gems on the Twittersphere last week:
Excuse me? Could you repeat that? “Let the Fed figure out how to make it work.” “Nobody would lose their jobs.” “You’d have a big burst of inflation and we’d be better off for it.” Sigh. Now, to be fair, Yglesias is rather notorious for his It’s heartening that some of the responses on Twitter have accurately identified various parts of this insanity:
and
and
But for those who prefer their economics to come from economists rather than social media, you’re in luck. A brand new paper from a University of Washington team studying the effects of Seattle’s minimum wage laws has just been published by the National Bureau of Economic Research. Unlike the previous literature on the minimum wage laws (the ones that earnest socialists like to cite when arguing for the minimum wage hike), this study separated out low-wage workers from the general working population. In so doing, they found that Seattle’s recent minimum wage hike from $11/hr in 2015 to $13/hour last year “reduced hours worked in low-wage jobs by around 9 percent, while hourly wages in such jobs increased by around 3 percent.” The net result? “Consequently, total payroll fell for such jobs, implying that the minimum wage ordinance lowered low-wage employees’ earnings by an average of $125 per month in 2016.” In other words, the very poorest of the poor were made poorer by a significant chunk because loving central planners had attempted to “help them out.” But wait, it gets worse! A new working paper from a team of Harvard researchers found that not only do minimum wage increases negatively affect the earnings of the poorest workers, they also specifically hurt low-end restaurants that cater to those very working poor, while leaving unaffected the high-end restaurants frequented by wealthy patrons. Specifically:
That the minimum wage laws in fact end up hurting the poorest of the working poor and the humblest of small businesses should be no surprise to those with a modicum of economic understanding or historical context. Indeed, government intervention in the market is always and without fail used to prop up mega-corporations and the already-wealthy at the expense of local mom-and-pops and their low-wage employees.
It was true when the major meatpackers conspired to pass the Federal Meat Inspection Act in order to protect their oligopoly from small business competition. It was true when the Morgan and Rockefeller banking interests met on Jekyll Island to conspire in the drafting of what was to become the Federal Reserve Act, which lent an air of governmental legitimacy to their banking cartel and insured that small financial institutions that were not part of their clique could never compete. And it’s still true when minimum wage laws are passed, forcing mom-and-pops out of business, lowering the wages of the working poor, and further cementing the market share of the corporate mega-chains. Adding extra salt to the wounds of those who are fighting for $15, those corporate mega-chains are increasingly turning to a 21st-century option for ridding themselves of the low-wage worker problem once-and-for-all: automation. We don’t have to speculate about this point or engage in complex statistical analysis. It’s right there in black and white. “Last year was tough — 5 percent wage inflation,” lamented Wendy’s chief operating officer, Bob Wright, during a presentation to investors and analysts earlier this year. He went on to note that 2017 looks just as difficult, with a further 4 percent wage inflation expected. The answer? Who needs burger flippers when you’ve got robots! Wendy’s will install self-ordering kiosks in 1,000 of its stores by the end of the year, allowing it to trim dozens of more hours from the time cards of its minimum-wage workers. This is on top of the 31 hours per restaurant that Wendy’s has already managed to cut from its payroll since it began belt tightening in response to the minimum-wage hikes last year. Wendy’s isn’t alone, of course. The former CEO of McDonald’s USA suggested last year that the golden arches would follow suit (although the current CEO denies this). Indeed, the automation trend is taking off in every sector and industry, from industrial workers to life insurance accountants. But we still haven’t reached the very worst part of this whole scam. The worst part is that while almost everyone who advocates for the minimum-wage hikes today is under the misguided view that they are helping the poorest of the poor, the progressive progenitors of the minimum-wage idea in the early 20th century advocated for it specifically because they wanted to hurt the poor—by making them even poorer. No, you didn’t read that sentence incorrectly. As economic historian Thomas C. Leonard noted in “Retrospectives: Eugenics and Economics in the Progressive Era,” a study published in the Journal of Economic Perspectives in 2005, the fact that minimum-wage laws actually increase unemployment among poor, low-wage workers was perfectly well understood by the turn-of-the-century progressive reformers who advocated for them. More than that, the fact that they increase unemployment was actually seen as a key feature of those laws. As Leonard explains:
Did you catch that? By the logic of eugenics—the true religion of the progressives and their ilk—the poor must be made completely unemployable so they can be made wards of the state, segregated, and ultimately sterilized. After all, they had committed the crime of being born with “inferior genes”—or, in the pseudoscientific gobbledygook of that era, with “defective protoplasm.” Minimum-wage laws were actually designed to keep the poor out of the work force specifically so they would be at the mercy of the eugenicists.
As shocking as this philosophy may be to our modern sensibilities, living as we do in an era where eugenical ideas have gone out of fashion and must now be masked by a veneer of kindness and good intentions, the black-and-white statements of the early minimum-wage advocates leaves no doubt what these laws were intended to achieve. Take Henry Rogers Seager, a Columbia economist and president of the American Association for Labor Legislation, who wrote a key paper on the minimum-wage law in 1913. As Leonard relates in his “Retrospectives” article:
Or take Woodrow Wilson’s Commissioner of Labor Statistics, a Princeton economist by the unlikely name of Royal Meeker. Of him, Leonard notes:
This is the real history of the motive behind the fight for the minimum-wage—a history not even known, let alone understood or acknowledged, by the well-meaning dupes of the crypto-eugenic, centrally-planned technocratic slave state of our era. The entire point of the minimum wage—originally made explicitly, now implicitly—has always been to remove the poorest people from the labor pool in order to better mark them out for sterilization (or today, abortion) and, ultimately, elimination. Think about this history the next time your socialist collectivist friends preach the morality of the Fight For $15 movement and lecture you on how people who don’t agree with their virtuous vision (read: their economic idiocy) must not care about the poor. The truth is (as always) the exact opposite of the mainstream consensus. |
| Recommended Reading and Viewing
Recommended ReadingRoss Ulbricht Moved Interstate, Family Not Notified – Bits Online Recommended ListeningEconomics, Eugenics, and the Minimum Wage Recommended ViewingFREE ROSS ULBRICHT | Lyn Ulbricht @ Porcfest XIV 2017 NH Just For FunNew Album: Princess Leia’s Stolen Death Star Plans + + Things We Said Today #235 – How Sgt. Pepper met Star Wars with Dan Amrich of Palette-Swap Ninja |
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The world for hundreds, if not thousands of years, didn’t have a minimum wage. Instead it had slavery, where as today, a person’s education level usually will determine that persons earning potential.
Furthermore, the world for hundreds if not thousands of years, used Gold and Silver as currency (inflation was virtually none existent), where as today, most paper currencies are backed by oil and inflation is rampant (thanks Nixon).
Most of the world did away with the economic system of slavery in the 1800’s, however it was simply replaced by another form of slavery, and this system uses education or the lack there of, to determine how much someone will earn.
Industrialization and the abolishment of slavery created corporations, and these corporations hire lobbyists to negotiate government subsidies, and in doing so will promise to relocate and employ a certain percentage of the local population in return.
This is where education comes into play. The higher the education level is for the targeted demographic, the greater the odds the government(s) will be able to entice certain corporations to relocate in that area, and at least in theory, will increase the income levels and quality of life in that area.
That system worked rather well in the age of Nationalism and unions, however today with globalization, governments now have to balance the subsidies they give to corporations with that of wages, since these corporations ultimately are accountable to their shareholders alone, and it is the bottom line that matters, and most will use every trick in the book, including off-shoring, to keep wages at an absolute minimum, in order to increase profits.
Therefore, it is absolutely imperative that Federal Governments implement a national minimum wage that reflects costs of living in both rural and urban areas of the country.
A national living wage is what is needed to level the playing field nationally, but also internationally, one that is based on a 40 hour work week. So that anyone working 40 hrs a week actually earns enough without having to resort to food banks or second hand clothing shops just to make ends meet.
$7/Hr in the US just doesn’t cut it. In fact, I’d argue, it’s just another form of slavery.
For example, Japan has one of the world’s highest minimum wage rate, and yet it’s unemployment rate is one of the lowest, averaging 3%, and at the same time enjoys a median income of $40 000/year!
Obviously, Japan adjusted it’s minimum wage rate with the inflation rate over the years, and its society benefited from it.
Oh, I almost forgot another factor that goes hand in hand with minimum wage and that is education, and Japan has one of the best education systems in the world, I’m sure James will attest to this, with an average of 55% of its population having a college diploma.
I would argue that the minimum wage is a barrier to prevent total market failure in the labour market.
The neoclassical economic theory (mainstream in most universities and “think tanksâ€) predicts that raising the minimum wage causes job losses because it applies the so called law of “supply and demand†to the labour market.
According to this theory a rising wage rate (i.e. a rising price of labour) will cause a rising supply and a falling demand for labour whereas a falling wage rate (i.e. a falling price of labour) will cause a falling supply and a rising demand for labour.
That, however, is nonsense and ideologically motivated un-science.
On the demand side you could ask whether really an ever falling wage rate would increase the “demand†for labour, even if we define “demand†as quantity of labour (e.g. work hours) bought. What would industrialists need labour for if there is no demand for the produce of that labour.
In any case if the wage rate falls then one factor for the total wage sum (e.g. Dollars) falls and therefore inevitably the total wage sum will fall unless the falling wage rate is over-compensated by a rising demand for work hours. (Wage sum = work hours bought * wage rate)
On the supply side the neoclassical theory is even more ridiculous. Do you really believe that the supply of labour will *fall* if the wage rate falls? I mean, what do people want to achieve by supplying labour? They want to earn money for their living!
If you need a specific amount of money for your subsistence (subsistence income) then you need to work at least as many hours as needed to earn your subsistence income at a given wage rate. As the wage rate falls the hours needed to earn a specific sum *rises*!!!
So in the lower income classes a falling wage rate does not reduce labour supply but on the contrary it raises labour supply which according to market forces will increase the downward pressure on the wage rate even more.
Thus minimum wage rate legislation is not aimed at making people starve. That is a preposterous claim. On the contrary minimum wage legislation is necessary to prevent market failure, and absent other redistributive measures (e.g. welfare, food stamps) it is a necessary tool to *avoid* that people are starving.
“As the wage rate falls the hours needed to earn a specific sum *rises*!!!”
But the wage rate is adjusted for inflation, correct? So if the wage rate falls then the price of goods and services should fall as well (vice versa for wage increase), meaning no ground was gained or lost, and you still work the same amount of hours and receive the same amount of goods and services for those wages earned.
These considerations are all about inflation-adjusted or „real“ values.
There is no reason to assume that all nominal wage changes will result in equal changes in the price level of other goods and services.
Assuming so would make real wage changes impossible, which obviously is not the case. (And if wages for some people change and for other people do not, what would be the effect on inflation?)
Also a change in “price level†or “inflation“ is a somewhat tricky thing anyway. The prices for some goods (say electronic gadgets) may fall and some prices (say housing) may rise. It now depends on the consumption pattern of a person whether their real income has fallen or risen.
In statistics some general “basket of goods†is taken and the changes in market prices for these goods are monitored so that an increase or decrease in the total sum needed to buy that basket of goods can be used as inflation value or “price deflator“.
The above argument by Paul6 is completely shot out of the water by fact. In the UK. The almost instant result of the minimum wage being implemented was the Zero Hour Contract.
The workforce lost the security of the 16 Hour and 35 Hour contracts they had and many though not all workers have had a reduction of hours under the new contract.
They are financially in a worse position compared to before the minimum wage.
Have a look at the figures.
More people receive Government support in the UK Today than before the Minimum Wage.
Well, I fail to see how information about the introduction of “zero hour contracts†would “shoot out of the water†any of the arguments made above.
As far as I can see (from outside, I am not British, and only after a quick research on the web) the introduction of the “zero hour contract†was simply a legislative decision. The legislator could just as well have introduced a minimum wage without also introducing the “zero hour contractâ€. Those are two separate legal regulations.
If there are now many “zero hour contracts†and people do not get enough work hours within their contracts, on what basis do you draw a connection to the minimum wage? Do you have statistical data or logical arguments that would point to a correlation of the height of the minimum wage and the number of zero hour contracts and/or the hours worked within such contracts?
Likewise, do you have data about the number of people receiving government support, the sum of support they receive, and the height of the minimum wage that would point to a connection between both?
Thanks! 🙂
In the US, I don’t think education levels determine a person’s financial situation at all. Especially today, when the student is already an intellectual zombie by the time they enter college. We have many people with law degrees managing fast food restaurants, and so on. Really, all our education systems do is prepare people to work for others, rather than starting up their own businesses. To me, this only serves to create a slave market, as what free person would consent to working for another?
While I despise anyone who would only pay you the absolute minimum they can legally get away with, this is a two-way system. After all, you don’t have to work for such a person. One always has a choice. The above arguments arguing for minimum wages as a positive really don’t make any sense at all to me. Workers are not being exploited by these wages, they choose to submit to them. There is absolutely no way that forcing employers to pay a certain level of money to someone who has no skill (or usually any desire to apply themselves to acquiring one) can benefit a society. If you want to benefit a society with wages, then that society might consider a true education in which a person can create their own income, and the prospect of working for dismal wages can help to create that desire. My own grandfather only had a 9th grade education and made millions. His story is not a singular one; history is filled with similar ones. Myself? A Master’s and far below my first million. Just my two cents worth. Either man up and make your own way, or whine about it.
Those arguments claiming that food stamps and the like are necessary completely miss some obvious points. Those monies were stolen from the real economy. Over here, since some forty per-cent of our economy is the government, that means that we are actually only living on about 20% of the real economy. If you took away all of the government theft, our standard of living would doubtless reach unfathomable levels. And while there would obviously be poverty still, our poor would seem like billionaires to most other countries.
“…as what free person would consent to working for another?”
— I’m sure you must have heard of the saying “too many chiefs, not enough Indians.” Well, we can’t all be chiefs, and no doubt your grandpa owes a great debt of gratitude to much of the hard working people he hired along the way that made him a millionaire.
“…Workers are not being exploited by these wages, they choose to submit to them.”
— Remember this? When jobs are scarce, you take what you can get. Governments should have seen this coming calamity when they signed NAFTA, and could have avoided much of the hard times people are going through today. They could have invested in retraining and could have adjusted the minimum wage with the inflation rate, but they didn’t. Now you got Trump, and people are again putting their lives in harms way working in coal mines, instead of working green energy or high tech jobs.
“There is absolutely no way that forcing employers to pay a certain level of money to someone who has no skill”
— They don’t, that’s why most corporations have a high turnover rate for entry level positions. They can hire and fire whomever they want with very few repercussions, and governments are ok with this because it artificially skews the unemployment rate, and shareholders are happier than pigs in sh.t.
wingsuitfreak says:
…In the US, I don’t think education levels determine a person’s financial situation at all….
I agree completely and emphatically. I went back to college late in life getting a degree in the sciences with a 3.85 GPA.
(I am now over 60 yrs old – https://www.corbettreport.com/the-weaponization-of-science/#comment-39039 )
I would had been dynamically better off financially if I had focused that energy towards doing my own business.
I don’t recommend college to anyone.
Once, prior to getting a degree I applied for a job as a Federal Express driver. ha!…but then I saw the statement that one needed a 4 year degree (to drive a delivery truck).
Well, James and the community of followers and leaders, this is my first post.
I am not an adulator I am an advocator and educator (of myself and others) and the way I see Jame’s reporting, and why I support it although, I believe his conclusions on a mega scale are inadequate (this for another discussion), is that Jame’s understands that thinking is a process and by this it means that we all think but we do not all think critically. Critical thinking is hard work, and is why so many never like to engage in it, preferring entertainment over education. Or, they have been warned that ‘thinking is subversive’.
Enough of my point of view on this matter, only to say that assessing our own thinking is important in all matters of life: from washing clothes to analyzing documents and claims.
But let us field the video presented here and the underlying assumptions. And I am posting this, as a reply, for me mind” knows nothing of computers:
You say:
While I despise anyone who would only pay you the absolute minimum they can legally get away with, this is a two-way system. After all, you don’t have to work for such a person”
You don’t have to work for such a the person. This is the claim. And the seemingly vague, and correct me if I am wrong, view of the agorist is that all we have to do is open a lemonade stand and compete with the fascists?
OK, so the first thing critical thinkng dmands is that we “define terms”. What is ‘such a person’? Never defined, but the underlying assumption is that there are persons who we work for and we do not have to work for them we can just drift here and there: juggle as they do in the streets of Ecuador, for food.
No, they are not ‘persons’they are multinational transnational corporations, sir! They own everything. Can’t you see that? This is not like the sixties or seventies, when one could go out and shift jobs from one ‘person’to the next.
The problem is so real: an inadequate understanding of both how economics works, historically and presently, and how societies function. I hear the ‘golden’echoes of Ayn Rand in this vagrant statement.
Agorism, or libertarian socialism is an ideal that comes out of historical and material factors, if it comes at all. Although interactive, it cannot fight fascism or militarism. It is unorganized subjective thought devoid of historical anaysis and memory. That is a big claim, I know, but if one understands, truly understands, dialectics they can see this is bourgeoise wishful thinking.
It seems to me, materially and historically speaking, agorism comes at the end of the dialectic, within historical moments. Or better said, the end of the dialectic between capitalism and socialism the dialectic never ends. It can produce fascism or socialism but never agorims and agorim is too weak to fight a system like we have now. We need an organized class, that is in itself and for itself.
Living in S. America for half a decade I have seen the attempt of countries to go from feudalism to socialism and the failures. While working for one year as a reporter in Nicaragua during the war, in 1985, I saw the same attempt, the same failure.
The attempt is to escape the material conditions of existing capitalism by avoiding the necessity of organizing as a class.. Individualism is put forth as the ideal and answer when it is the pernciious rot that got us here.
Capitalism is the problem. Ask any wage slave, they will tell you. And now, of course it is global, financial capitalism.
The agorist says no! Pull out, do voluntary associations, create communities, do your own currency and get out of the corporate matrix.
I am empathic. But idealism in and of itself does not create the formidable change in the material conditions to allow the unleashing of human potential and liberty.
OK, so we can just opt out of global capitalism and grow gardens, share subprime housing, garbage dive, etc.?
Well, then the other point of view, and one I think is really the assumption behind this program is, when we try to create something outside the corporate capitalist matrix see what they do!!!
Yes, this is what ‘they’ do!!! They being a surround Spectacle that controls every facet of life. They oppress, repress, kill, murder and overthrow political regimes. They do not water gardens.
The reply, that we must create a different world and can do it through such things as Uber, now Saudi owned, is a complete misunderstanding from a material historical perspective of how the world works.
I am for libertarian socialism, but not libertarian capitalism. Those who want o go back in time to the days of flea market capitalism have cut off their nose to spite their face.
And, now that fascism is global, the argument for the jump to rain water or garden growing and people’s markets, from drain water and supermarkets as a solution sounds like the morbid drum beat of the after math of apocaplypse, not a prescription for change.
Change occurs on many levels and I do not wish to çut down’ the efforts of those trying to live a post-perma life. Sorry, it won;t work.
The struggle is a class struggle. We see the not so linear progression of history, now landing us in terminal financial capitalism. But the ‘terminal’ part is salient for when fascism, the ultimate expression of the dialectic of capitalism , impregnates societies and quaint, yet botanical garden, it is over. the struggle takes on new forms and individualism will not cut it. Only struggle with others as a class can attempt to staunch the wounds.
Only together, only as one entity among diverse forces can we have a chance (collectivism), if that, at overthrowing the tyranny that governs our lives, threatens our children and mothers and future generations while laying savage claims on the world.
Capitalism IS THE PROBLEM. We must get through this historical wreckage if we can, to a socialist world from which can be born real, historically birthed, agorism.
weilunion,
I agree with almost everything you say here. Guess that would make me an agorist and I didn’t even know it. Judging from all my posts here at the CR, I believe they would fit nicely into the Libertarian socialist category.
Hope to hear (read) more from you soon.
After reading your comment, I would like to respond. First, I completely disagree with your claim that we are powerless. While you do not state this in those terms, that is the result of your claim. Perhaps in your country, there is absolutely no way that anyone can “open a lemonade stand”, but that does not hold true in every other one. Who is this “they” you speak of? In most cases, it is yourself. This “they” is merely another excuse a person has in order to do nothing. Yes, there are people, and organizations, that would like you to think they have power over you, but they can only have power over the weak. And yes, I have traveled all over the world, to include Central America (where it seemed to me that the spirit of Agorism is even stronger than in the US).
Now when it comes to critical thinking, I agree completely. Most people do not think. Regurgitating what they’ve been told is the closest they can get. Partly because they are lazy, but also because they are cowards. Yes, cowards. They are afraid that if they think then they will find out their life has been a lie. Which is exactly what will happen. However, you are choosing fear. You believe that you will be killed if you exercise any degree of freedom in your life. You can do nothing entrepreneurial because “they” will kill you. That was not even true in the Soviet Union. In fact, the more totalitarian the system, the more opportunities arise for those brave enough to take advantage of them. This is known as the black market (which also appears to be the main economy in many of those countries). I could go on, but the subject bores me. You are speaking from a fear perspective and I despise (and refuse to recognize) such a mind-set. Don’t tell me about how you “can’t” do something; Can’ts never got a damn thing done. Only the can’s matter.
Fascinating and horrifying but not surprising that eugenicists would use the double-edged sword of minimum wage to their ends.
gallup polls and gold confiscation, a friend of a certain banker named Aldrich…
Was FDR a eugenicist?
“…Across the nation during the 1930s, state legislatures (eventually 38) enacted sterilization laws regarding the “feeble-minded.â€
Also during this time, Franklin Roosevelt became president, and in Christopher Thorne’s Allies of a Kind (1978) one finds:
“Subjects to do with breeding and race seem, indeed, to have held a certain fascination for the president….
Roosevelt felt it in order to talk, jokingly, of dealing with Puerto Rico’s excessive birth rate by employing, in his own words, ‘the methods which Hitler used effectively’ [to make them] sterile.â€
https://www.crossroad.to/articles2/009/cuddy/eugenics.htm
Was eugenics the New Deal??
I guess my silly question was:
was minimum wage really institutionalized by the post-crash Roosevelt admin as a tool of eugenics?
That would be a real zinger of a revelation!
Got to look into this!
Leonard’s paper “Eugenics and Economics in the Progressive Era” linked by Mr. Corbett is a truly informative investigation of how the Eugenistic zeitgeist of the time infused socio-economic policies.
Two passages (along with a shocking passage on Swedish eugenistic practices) caught my eye. One concerning eugenics and minimum wage, the other contrasting the mindsets of big government progressives and the traditional liberal conception of the state’s role:
“…a member of the Massachusetts Minimum Wage Commission, referred approvingly to the intent of Australia’s minimum wage law to
“protect the white Australian’s standard of living from the invidious competition of the colored races, particularly of the Chinese.†Florence Kelley (1911, p. 304),
perhaps the most influential U.S. labor reformer of the day, also endorsed the Australian minimum-wage law as “redeeming the sweated trades†by preventing the “unbridled competition†of the unemployable, the “women, children, and Chinese [who] were reducing all the employees to starvation . . .â€
“…The legitimacy of social control meant, in practice, the legitimacy of state control. For progressives, the legitimacy of state control derived from their conception of the state as
an entity prior to and greater than the sum of its constituent individuals,
a conception that opposed the traditional liberal emphasis on individual freedom and the liberal view that the state’s legitimacy derives solely from the consent of its individual creators…”
If Leonard is credible then the “living wage” has indeed always been associated with an inherent loss of jobs.
The notion of “Race suicide” was also running through the arteries of the industrial era boom.
Of course more than an idle hour’s reading on the subject would be necessary to confidently make such a claim but
FDR could not have been ignorant of the economic dynamics inherent in instituting the minimum or “living” wage or he would have proscribed the losses that accompany the institution of MW laws.
Perhaps he did. I’ll have to check!…
FDR may well have had eugenistic notions in mind when institutionalizing minimum wage:
From
Hunting Down Social Darwinism; Will this Canard go Extinct?
Stuart K. Hayashi
“…Finally, let us not overlook Frances Perkins, the secretary of Labor under FDR, who was architect of the Fair Labor Standards act (FLSA). It was the FLSA that forbid every U.S. State from having a minimum wage lower than that which was set at the federal level.
It is by more than a mere coinicidence that Frances Perkins was ideologically influenced by the same Mary Rumsey née Harriman who tirelessly promoted progressive, governist eugenics…”
https://books.google.de/books?id=LjW_BgAAQBAJ&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=frances+perkins+sterilization&source=bl&ots=Q_HX5UEB37&sig=3m8WIMY0hm6frjqdEW85eb9LZ6U&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdg4GPiYvVAhWEuxQKHSRYAa8Q6AEIUTAH#v=onepage&q=frances%20perkins%20sterilization&f=false
Indeed, from “The WOW Report” website:
“…At the same time, Perkins was in a 20 year deeply secret romantic relationship with Mary Harriman Rumsey (sister of Averell Harriman). The pair lived together in Washington DC, hosting parties for the famous & powerful, film stars & politicians…”
http://worldofwonder.net/bornthisday-liberal-pioneer-frances-perkins/
“…At Barnard, Harriman majored in biology and sociology, developing a particular interest in eugenics, which would later become one of her many professional pursuits…
…When President Franklin Delano Roosevelt launched the New Deal, Harriman became an integral part of the groundbreaking recovery effort. She ran the Consumers’ Division of the National Emergency Council and was appointed directly by Roosevelt to chair the Consumers Advisory Board (CAB) of the National Recovery Administration (NRA), within which she established the Bureau of Economic Education. Additionally, she co-authored the 1935 Social Security Act with Secretary of Labor (and former Junior League colleague and close college friend) Frances Perkins…”
https://barnardarchives.wordpress.com/2011/01/01/mary-harriman-rumsey-05/
As my last comment is awaiting moderation I’ll just post the following as an added perspective:
The discussion on this page, though it doesn’t concern minimum wage, seemed like an interesting perspective into the question of eugenic elements in FDR’s administration:
https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/30769/why-did-franklin-roosevelt-promote-nazi-sympathizer-eugenicist-frederick-osborn
What applied in the early 1900’s might not apply now. The circumstances of the under-privileged in the days before electricity, hot water, antibiotics, education and hospitals, were appalling. Today’s skid-roads are virtual paradises compared with the desperation found in the slums of Victorian urban areas. At that time there existed little or no hope for the street people – those who were crippled, parasite-infested, syphilitic or mentally-challenged.
One sad irony emerges when such a comparison is made. In former times, where poverty and filth were normal, humans bred successfully and the population increased steadily. In modern times however, despite the West’s prosperity and huge increase in living standards, we’re dying out. So far, I’ve been able to identify only one reason – technology. We’ve killed ourselves with our most valued invention. Few have noticed, and less care. We failed. Not to worry, let’s have bigger and better firework displays, more Award shows, pump the stock market even beyond absurdity, let’s have more fake PC news, and more hype for the late night shows. All is vanity.
Guess I went off topic – at least I’ve got it off my chest. We failed and nobody noticed.
There is no irony emerging. Only the falsity of our education is emerging. Yes, electricity is great. Yes, hot water is good. However, our medical and education systems are far worse than times past. I’m not saying that our hospitals were that great back then, it’s just they are truly horrific today. Today, our medical system is thought to be the third leading cause of death. Our education system is a nightmare which only produces mindless robots incapable of questioning authority or learning. What hasn’t changed is economics. It is still the same. What you are seeing is the result of decisions made back then. To do more of what got us here is sheer insanity. I’m not calling you insane, it’s just that the system we live in is pretty sick and it’s hard to see clearly while you still believe it is something you would even want to fix.
An inconvenient truth for some, no doubt. But let’s go back to basics on the minimum wage creed without the eugenics angle, with this wonderful animation about Edgar the Exploiter:
youtu.be/IFbYM2EDz40
For those who’d like to argue that e.g. Australia has a high minimum wage and robust employment, and therefore…
Read this article about the misleading way general employment stats are used to push the $15 fight:
internationalman.com/articles/the-minimum-wage-and-unemployment-in-australia
And for a closer look at the disastrous Seattle minimum wage policy, listen to the Contra Krugman podcast by Tom Woods and Bob Murphy:
contrakrugman.com/ep-93-the-seattle-minimum-wage-policy-is-a-disaster/
For basic economics, go to Mises.org
Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Richard
This ain’t complicated. The push for $15 is based on the average cost of living from one State to another in 2017 America.
Basic Arithmetic: (Rent + Food + clothing + transportation) x $15/hr x 40/hrs per week = A living Wage = Approx $15/hr
I’d argue that the average might be closer to $12/hr in most American cities, and $15/hr in most Canadian cities, and probably more than likely a $1 or $2 less in rural areas depending on transportation costs.
What most people are fighting for is dignity of work. I honestly fail to understand how asking for a basic minimum wage in order to simply earn enough to pay for basic necessities of life, such as Rent, Food, clothing and transportation is eugenics?
Then get a better job. I honestly don’t see how you don’t understand this concept. The article was clear and easy to read. You have been given many resources to look into. It is basic economics. While you think you are looking out for human dignity, you are insisting on destroying it. You have ignored everything that has been written, so your confusion is on you.
“Then get a better job”
Hey millions of people out there working 2 or 3 jobs, working 40 hours per week, struggling to make ends meet, slaving away week to week, month to month. Forget about NAFTA and globalization, wingsuitfreak says government has nothing to do with it, this is free market capitalism after all, supply and demand. It’s easy, just get a better job!
Don’t hold your representatives accountable for outsourcing good paying jobs, just so they can increase their profits, just get a better one!
Oh, and as you move up the ladder, it’ll be your turn to screw the people below you and enrich yourselves from the fruits of their labor. Make those dirty undocumented Mexicans plow the fields and pick the lettuce, so you can sell them cheap at Walmart and under cut your competition, and then get Trump to go after the millions of poor undocumented Mexicans instead of actually going after the Americans that hire them at $3 or $4 an hour.
Isn’t unchecked capitalism grand?
What have they done to improve their marketability? Why do they insist on working for others? How did you read this article, and all these comments and learn nothing? This is the first article/video/whatever that I have read on this site where so many people are refusing to actually read before commenting. All these concerns that are being raised by you raise the wage people have been addressed from the very beginning. You have simply ignored it. That is not my fault. That is your fault.
I did read the article, and I agree with some parts of it, but I mostly disagree with not having a minimum wage and the eugenics parts.
Tell you what, it’s no secret I’m no big fan of America since they pulled 9/11, and I’m no big fan of Trump and the Republicans either, but I’m gonna start supporting Trump.
I know about that whole fake left/right paradigm, but I want Trump to build that wall now. I want to see California’s and Texas economies collapse, let’s do it. Let’s round up all those dirty Mexicans and deport them back to Mexico, and let’s build that wall, let’s do it.
And, let’s let American companies out source all the good paying jobs even though every day Americans helped them become what they are today, and if Americans don’t like it, we’ll tough luck, we’ll tell them they can pick lettuce from now on at $3/hr, and if they don’t like that, we’ll tell them to just “get a better job”.
Hey, forget about 9/11, they killed and murdered millions of Iraqi for a good cause, to make America Great Again. Stop complaining about low wages hippy liberal scum.
Hell this is easy, why didn’t I think of this, and it’s kinda fun too. If I’m gonna make it through this world, I gotta start thinking about number 1, me, forget about those fighting for $15 welfare state slobs, or those poor pathetic Iraqi’s. America is exceptional, so you better get used to it.
Thanks wingsuitfreak for illuminating me, I now see the errors of my ways.
I disagree with your comprehension of the article. Also that you obviously did not check any of the resources supplied to you by Richard Ran. You are still looking for everyone to give you the answers you want to hear, not the truth. We are done. You ask stupid questions and don’t listen to the answers. They are stupid because they were already adequately addressed for even the most illiterate of economic students. All that can be gained from any further contact with you is my dumbing down. Good-bye.
Well, you got me there wingsuitfreak, I did not check Richard Ran resources, and I know you don’t care what I have to say, but I’m serious about supporting Trump from now on.
Let’s build that wall. Let’s see how long the economies in Texas and California can survive without those pesky Mexicans growing, picking and serving the food there.
And why not get this eugenics thing underway at the same time. Deport those Mexicans, build that wall, and to hell with Medicare or affordable health care.
PeaceFroggs we all understand that you are a very special snowflake. We all hope you can have everything and that you don’t have to do anything to get it. We hope you will someday become our President because of your reading and comprehension level. You deserve everything and should not have to earn it!
Buck Wild,
I can’t believe that you cannot understand that people that work 40/hrs a week that are made to earn minimum wage (actually supporting the article here|) are being taken advantage of, since the minimum wage is below the poverty level thanks to inflation, and if you can’t understand that simple little concept, it is you that is “special”.
I agree with you PeaceFroggs, and notice that you are presenting logical arguments while wingsuitfreak is simply insulting you. Almost like an attempt to bully you out of disagreeing.
I’d like to hear what Corbett considers an alternative to a minimum wage. If not that, then what?
and another person I won’t speak to. If you had read the article, you wouldn’t ask the questions you are asking. Your ignorance is yours, not mine. Or go up to Richard Ran’s comment and check out his resources that he offered. But that would take time and effort. Both of which are too much for you. Personally, I would rather buy a robot than hire you. Which is probably what your boss is also thinking. I say your boss, because those concerned with getting a minimum wage are far too interested in putting forth minimum effort to be an entrepreneur. Since you were too lazy to read the article, why would anyone respect your opinion? Don’t bother answering as I won’t bother reading your response. You’ve already proven it’s not worth reading.
wingsuitfreak,
You don’t have to agree with PeaceFroggs or myra’s point of view, but why don’t you try debating the actual idea instead of using ad hominem attacks. You aren’t promoting any healthy discussion here, but rather trolling this comments section.
The argument you keep using in your replies is not sound. You suggest by your comments that James’ article is the ultimate authority on this topic and that all someone needs to do is simply read it and the debate will be over. You are assuming that James’ conclusion is correct in the first place, without discussing the ideas themselves. Your argument also assumes that Richard Ran’s resources are an authority and are correct, when there is much debate regarding those ideas presented.
I did. He had been given numerous references and chose (and admitted) that he did not utilize them. Instead he chose the childish route of insisting that his ignorance be validated. Read the whole thing over again. Or not. I don’t care if you agree or disagree. I don’t care if you think that people should just waste other people’s time. That is exactly what that snowflake did. Everyone else put more time into him than he was willing to do himself. For that, I have absolutely no respect. In turn, I decided to discontinue any further conversation with such a beast that has no respect for anyone else’s time. If that bothers you, let me know and I will just ignore you as well. No skin off my back when ignorant time wasters get upset at me.
Also, your argument is false. I did not say that Jame’s article was the one source. I pointed out others, but the snowflake didn’t bother reading those either. On further reflection, I will make the call to no longer communicate with you as you are obviously not of a sound mind.
Buy your robot mr wingssuitfreak but do not forget it was TAX dollars that paid for that technology and it was the PUBLIC who shouldered the risk if it failed.
Buy your robot to complement your helpers and ease their burden… do not replace them.
Because if a robot can replace them, perhaps there’s one to replace you.
Hi candlesnstones,
About those tax dollars, here’s a short animation that sheds some light on the issue. It’s called: “George ought to Help” and it’s only 4 minutes of your time:
youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs
Remember that every government (tax)-“created” job takes resources away from a private sector job. Something to do with Frédéric Bastiat’s “things unseen”. Check him out.
mises.org/library/which-seen-and-which-not-seen
The welfare/warfare state cannot create, it can only redistribute and use force, home and abroad.
George ought to help? Are you kidding me?? What are we in third grade again. Most if not everything you stated is fallacy. Take robotics, since someone mentioned it. This technology could not be developed in the private sector and hence was developed in the state sector, mainly the military. It is then, through some magical process, handed over to the private sector so that they may profit from publicly funded research and technology. There are many examples like this
Myra we all understand that you are a very special snowflake. We all hope you can have everything and that you don’t have to do anything to get it. We hope you will someday become our President because of your reading and comprehension level. You deserve everything and should not have to earn it!
My oh my. Look here. Buck Wild simply has a canned response he cuts (probably from right wing “talking points”) and pastes onto posts he dislikes. Identical canned responses to both me and PeaceFroggs, almost like a bot, complete with the overused right wing insult du jour “snowflake.”
Clearly Buck Wild and wingsuitfreak got the same right wing memo.
@myra, Peacefrogs’s are logical arguments????????????????
please…
For everyone on this thread…
MONEY FOR NOTHING – This is a true story (a short read anecdote)
https://www.corbettreport.com/i-see-green-light/comment-page-1/#comment-39281
Re: Recommended Reading – “Adjustments†Account For ‘Nearly All Recent Warming’
I found it interesting that climate scientists and “activists” arguing that a challenge to the current “consensus” on climate science by minority opinions would be DANGEROUS to the existing climate science. Ha. It obviously would be disruptive to group-think of climate science today, but I’m unsure of why that would be a bad thing for true scientists who are interested in finding the objective truth on scientific phenomena.
“Secretary of Energy Rick Perry also came out in favor of red-blue team exercises, which are used by the military and intelligence agencies to expose any vulnerabilities to systems or strategies. Environmental activists and climate scientists largely panned the idea, with some even arguing it would be “dangerous†to elevate minority scientific opinions. “Such calls for special teams of investigators are not about honest scientific debate,†wrote climate scientist Ben Santer and Kerry Emanuel and historian and activist Naomi Oreskes. “They are dangerous attempts to elevate the status of minority opinions, and to undercut the legitimacy, objectivity and transparency of existing climate science,†the three wrote in a recent Washington Post op-ed.”
Explain to me why it’s not inevitable that in a godless technocratic society the dollar value of human labor will tend toward ZERO automatically. If humans are nothing more than fungible economic units, and if they have no cosmic significance or inherent value AS HUMANS, then why SHOULDN’T they be allowed (or forced) to become extinct by automation as technology becomes available? Explain to me what “moral imperative” requires economically useless people to be kept alive or supported in any way, e.g., by a “Universal Basic Income” paid for by economically productive people? Without a world view that sees human beings as having inherent dignity, why SHOULDN’T “useless eaters” be exterminated? It seems clear to me that the big debate among the world’s elite is how to get rid of a large part of the world’s population at the least cost to their (the elite’s) perquisites. Not one of these Godless f*cks gives a crap about human life that is not their own, and even if they have to sacrifice a good portion of their own “lower echelons” (say, the 2 to 5 percenters) to keep the game going for the top 1%, they will gladly do so as long as the bottom 2 to 5 percenters are around to cater to their whims and aberrosexual desires. Absent a widespread global reversion to a world view that sees all human life as having intrinsic value regardless of economic productivity, I don’t see much hope for humanity before most of us have shuffled off this mortal coil. Just sayin’.
Well stated Rara Avis!
James, excellent article. Thank you for the links. I’ve just been embroiled in this minimum wage argument at Wolf Street. Richter seemed like a smart guy, but he doesn’t get the minimum wage issue. He even said that the higher minimum wage hasn’t caused unemployment in SF because the unemployment rate there is only 2.9%. ?!? Did it occur to the guy that the minimum wage workers don’t live in SF? There unemployment stats would likely be on the books of a nearby city. Actually, I think most of them have been chased out long ago.
This argument is just as stupid as the “health care” argument before Obummer care. At that time, my nephew self-righteously posted on his fb page, “No one should die for lack of health care.” I wanted to ask him to name one person who did. For family peace, i didn’t.
This emotionalism trumping common sense is so frustrating and damaging. wingsuitfreak is 100% correct. It’s depressing to see this nonsense on corbettreport.com
A wider point re “debate”. Because sure, there is always debate and there should be. There’s no final authority with a monopoly on truth and besides, we might agree that all of us here are against monopolies 😉
That said, there are sound and unsound ways of reasoning and presenting an argument. When economic issues are concerned, you can not have any meaningful discussion if a basic understanding of these issues is evidently lacking. All I hear from the “but.. but.. but..” sayers is an appeal to good intentions to justify the use of welfare/warfare state force to make others comply to their demands.
Sometimes it seems that there’s a special understanding involved of the law of supply and demand, in that all one has to do is grab a bullhorn and demand. Soon enough, by state coercion, there will be supply.
That’s the zero-sum economics of a birthday cake distribution in a family. It’s a shouting match about equal sharing and not getting your fair share. Those who shout loudest might just get a bit more, as well as those who successfully convince mom/dad/.. that they’re the victims of these loud-mouths by getting less than all the others.
Economics is about human action. Go to Mises.org to school yourself, while learning that economics doesn’t have to be boring at all. After that, there will be plenty of room left for debate. Trust me 😉
Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Richard
Meanwhile, for those interested in hearing about economic issues in a most entertaining way, here’s Tom Woods about another of these economic superstitions called “predatory pricing”. Listen, learn and above all: enjoy!
youtu.be/V6dD-ifIr8s
Notice that Woods doesn’t defend “Big Business” in that he makes the crucial distinction between political and free market entrepreneurs. The first category won’t survive in a free market where they’ll have to serve customers, but will get yuuuge through political connections and govt support of some sort. Those are the cronies, the corporatists that serve the NWO purpose of giving genuine entrepreneurs a bad name. It’s like the old snake oil Rockefeller said, “competition is a sin.”
Economics is one of those subjects I hated and now I know why. The Koch brothers buying Econ departments across the nation hasn’t added any joy to my life either. But what really bothered me was that smug micro economics professor at Akron u who, on the first day if class, said “… and for those of you who haven’t had calculus I suggest you get some.” I remember it ver-fckin-batim. Calculus wasn’t required for that course but that was long ago and I’d like to believe I’ve grown wise
In the 1960’s I remember making 75 cents an hour as a busboy at a Texas Holiday Inn restaurant. At 15 years old, I would ride my motorcycle to work. A year or two later, at the Officers Open Mess (Officers Club) of a Helicopter Training Base (Vietnam War era), I was making $1.25 to $1.75 an hour. With my pass for the 10,000 personnel military base, I would seek out adventures…for example: just walking into the Vietnamese barracks with my dictionary and strike up conversations, or paying a Captain late one night to teach me how to win at poker.
With many servicemen shipping out, cars would often be in the newspaper “Want Ads”. At age 16, I begged and begged my Dad to let me buy one of two used Corvettes (’63 & ’64) which were selling for $600 and $900. My Father allowed me a long leash when it came to adventure, experience, experiments and education, but here he said “No. No way son. Don’t ask again.”
Very Nice Large Texas Homes on large lots for Sale in the 1960’s might cost between $8,000 to $15,000.
See examples of Homes in the 1960’s…
http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/60s-homes.html
See the “unadjusted” statistics…
https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/census/historic/values.html
The Big Silver Melt by Henry Merton is a fascinating book with photos and many anecdotes which I read in the 1980’s after the Hunt Silver market manipulation.
Around 1965, LBJ pushes to change the amount of silver found in U.S. coins. Henry Merton claims that about 1.24 million ounces of US coins were melted between 1966 and 1969. I believe him.
Pardon my feeble grasp of economics, but I fail to see how a wage increase hurts someone. Stop clouding the issue with all this other stuff.
An individual on minimum wage cannot afford to live on that unless they work at least 60hrs per week. If a wage increase means they can survive working less hours then that is their choice. We’re not mentioning how lots of businesses have fixed shift times. 10 or 12 hrs in most cases. Someone said “get a better job” Great, we could all maybe get a better job no? Oh, that’s just for the go-getters and dog eat dog advocates, the remaining chattel can just lump it. Meaning most working class people. That hurts working people…
Hi boxrattler,
Perhaps this short vid called “How does minimum wage hurt workers?” will help to make you see:
youtu.be/JoNGpWFsE3o
Marginal workers are not helped by the use of govt force (imposing MW, or rising MW) resulting in higher unemployment. You mention someone with a wage increase but forgot to tell the whole story, which is the other ones without a job, so no wage at all.
Federal increase of minimum wage has never ever worked (to help the average guy).
It has worked to help the very rich get richer and to help politicians get elected.
“Federal increase of minimum wage has never ever worked”
Really, never worked?
Sure, there are Developed countries that don’t have a minimum wage, instead these countries rely on trade unions and employers’ organizations that negotiate wage rates.
PeaceFroggs,
You personally can EASILY increase minimum wage within your local area.
It is no problem.
It is simple.
The next time you go to buy a burger, after you pay for it, tip everyone working there on a prorated hourly basis.
Anytime you purchase anything, just tip the employees.
If you spend 30 minutes talking to someone in a store, then tip everyone working there “30 minutes worth of time”. So, if they are making $10 hr, but you think they should be making $20 per hour…then tip everyone $5. Even if you don’t purchase anything, because you used their time.
Put your money where your mouth is.
(However, I think what you really want… is to ENFORCE others to tip under duress and penalty. You personally don’t want to, but you are willing to make other do it even at threat of jail or gunpoint.)
And by the way, I often tip in “non-tipping” environments.
I have no problem paying a few cents more for every product I buy so long as the person working at Walmart for example earns $15/hr instead of $10/hr.
For example I’d happily pay $0.67 for every can of tomato soup instead of $0.65. Do that for every item in the store and then multiple that by every person at the check out every hour, and they’d make more than enough to pay their employees $15/hr.
In fact, why should it be up to us to tip a waitresses or servers? If their employer would pay them a living wage, we wouldn’t have to tip anyone anymore, ever!
Common HomeRemedySupply, are you really this stupid? Are you telling me someone earning $7/hr working 40hrs per week can afford rent, food, cloths, utilities, transportation, without having to rely on food banks an/or second hand clothing shops?
What I really want is for people working 40 hrs per week to have earn enough for them to be able to pay for basic necessities of life, and have dignity of work.
Is this asking too much? No, it isn’t since most countries and States are now implementing legislation that ties the minimum wage to fluctuate with the consumer price index.
PeaceFroggs,
Put your money where your mouth is.
You, right now, immediately can increase hourly pay for workers who you come in contact with.
If you don’t go tip every employee (regardless of service) in every venue which you come in contact, then you are full of hot air…
…or…
…you wish to be a dictator who mandates with threat to impose your rules on other people.
He has no money. He won’t even invest in himself so he is working for minimum wage. Which is the result of putting minimum effort into yourself. And the reason why I quit trying to help him. He refuses to listen. He asks for help and then refuses to accept it. Call me simple, but I sort of consider that type of behavior delusional.
You two sound like immature teenagers. Honestly aren’t you guys like in your 60’s or 70’s? Kinda pathetic really.
Listen, this ain’t complicated Ok. I’m concerned with young people and the yet to be born. I do not want them to be taken advantage and have the fruits of their labor stolen.
Generations back, people stepped up and abolished slavery, many of whom gave their lives. Having no minimum wage or a minimum wage that doesn’t keep up with inflation is just another form of slavery. More sophisticated mind you, but slavery nonetheless.
Think this shouldn’t be regulated? Think employers wouldn’t take advantage of people? Go ask the poor undocumented Mexicans working long hours making $3 or $4/hr.
PeaceFroggs,
I make just over minimum wage at the hourly jobs I have had in recent years and in years of the distant past. It is not a living wage.
Most of my neighbors also make close to minimum wage.
When minimum wage was 75 cents an hour (for restaurant workers) (which I was making), it wasn’t a living wage but much better of an “average guy” situation than now.
Over the decades, minimum wage has been raised but the “average guy” situation has progressively gotten worse.
In the 1950’s when I was growing up, a father could support his stay-at-home wife and kids and own a house. Even the delivery milkman who left milk on your doorstep could support his family.
For 6 decades I have watched and experienced the deterioration for the average guy.
Hola aloha amigo HRS,
I always buy my foods and clothes at local little stores and not at big companies as Walmart or McDeath, because these corporations are owned by the globkaki and I will never pay them a penny, otherwise I support and maintain their evil system.
And in Holland when adult people become unemployed, they first get unemployment money, because working people pay a unemployment contribution. How long the period will be that they receive this unemployment money depends on how many many years they worked before they became unemployed. After that period they are going to get into the welfare system.
This law was introduced in 1965 and a lot of people abused / misused it. And in 2015 the Dutch government changed the law and when you are now unemployed the Dutch government is allowed to put you mandatory at work at a big corporation and the first 3 a 6 months the company don’t pay you anything, because the Dutch state will pay you with the welfare system during that period. So the big corporations benefits only from this modern slave system…. And these states slaves are also a competitor for the people who seek a new job..
Previously churches and private institutions were primarily responsible for the care of the poor in Holland and I think that is a much more humane and better solution, than being abused as welfare system slave by the state and the corporations of the globkaki.
And amigo HRS y otros amiga/os I can recommend to listen to this interesting interview with Wayne Jett, author of “Fruits of Graft”. He discuss in depth the history of the events and actions leading up to the Great Depression. He also discuss the activities and actions taken during the Great Depression that caused increased misery for millions. This will surely be a historical view of the Great Depression you have not heard before.
And listen to the info he shares with us about the father of JFK, who was a Wall street gangster like George Soros during that period.
Great Depression, What You Didn’t Learn in School – Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ClXnLMMpN8
And PeaceFrogg even when people obtain useful knowledge from people like señor James, they still can behave as people who are ignorant and their life is also lost….
Saludos para todos
Pablo de Boer
Pablo de Boer,
Thanks, but I believe it is you Pablo that is ignorant not I, plus I’ll add that you are also stubborn.
You see Pablo, people disagree with each other all the time, this doesn’t mean one or the other is ignorant and the other is right all the time.
But I’ve been here long enough to know that you seem to believe you have all the answers as you copy paste link after link after link, as if somehow this proves your right, because it doesn’t.
If people do not conform to your way of thinking, and they dare challenge your beliefs, you label them as ignorant, that to me is stubborn.
Bye!
I should open up a psychic hotline! After all, I did say he worked for minimum wage. And even gave the reason why. And it is the same reason he will never really stay out of sight of it. Because he does not put any effort into himself. Which he has already admitted when he wasted everyone’s time by asking for clarification and then refusing to look at any of the information gathered expressly for his benefit. It is insane to expect others to care more for you than you do. Which explains a lot.
Hola aloha PeaceFroggs
Be more independent and use google translate to find out what Pretentious is in Spanish.
So copy the word pretentious
and subsequently paste Pretentious in
https://translate.google.com/
And if you don’t trust the result of google, there are more translate programs on the internet..
Saludos y abrazos,
Pablo de Boer
“the Dutch government is allowed to put you mandatory at work at a big corporation and the first 3 a 6 months the company don’t pay you anything”
They have a similar scheme in UK as well, I remember reading about free workers for Walmart and other retailers. I think it was 350 pound/mo for a full time low end employment.
I’d wager that this system could zap a semi intelligent person back into reality and make them want to make things better for themselves. When upgrading from “slave” I guess everything is better so stuff like this may work out.
Recently, political geniuses in my failed state introduced a 50% minimum wage state subsidized “jobs” in the private sector for people with no previous work experience and younger than XY. Minimum wage is less than 400€ and these guys got to “work” for about 210€. For comparison purposes, a 30km commute and a sandwich will net you some 100€ per month. We’re talking basic sandwiches here, no soda nor yogurt.
There was a lot of talk about this “measure” which in my opinion failed on several fronts.
1. the “program” would run out of money very quickly since many a private business owner wanted a free “worker” of their own
2. people who work for nothing can be expected to pretty much amount to nothing. Not only will they be given demenial tasks, but won’t be on the receiving end of any intellectual investment either.
3. Low pay, low experience accumulation, low intellectual stimulation; one has to wonder how stupid is the average private entrepreneur in this country for thinking they can benefit from hiring such workers. Mighty, mighty stupid.
4. while increasing job availability velocity should be good no matter how you look at it, state FUNDED and ADMINISTERED slavery isn’t the way to go forward
I bet there were some people who benefited from this program, but looking at the matter as a whole, peoples’ reappropriations cash (a.k.a. taxes) funded some slaves for the private sector while providing some screen time for politician idiots who came up with this idiocy.
Pablo Mkey et al,
Geez! I did not know about these work programs with corporations via the government handouts.
What a prison planet!
I doubt you’re surprised, though.
Hola aloha HRS and Mkey,
The Dutch governmental law which allows the government to put you mandatory at work at a big corporation is named de participatie wet = the participation law, for me the name is very sarcastic and hide the true intention and motive of this slavery behavior applied by the state. In Holland the right winged politicians as well the leftist politicians promote this inhumane law and the big corporations praise this law, due to the gratuitous employee the get free from the state.
A lot of people think that Holland is a social country, but that ain’t true, because Holland is more a socialist state and socialism is fake empathy and serves only the big corporations at the expense of 99 %
The Dutch Labour Party / PVDA is a big supporter of the EU and European Central Bank. Wim Duisenberg was a politician and member of the Dutch Labour Party and the first president of the European Central Bank..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Duisenberg
Saludos y abrazos,
Pablo de Boer
Hola aloha PeaceFroggs
Muchas gracais for your polite expression of praise by calling me stubborn. In Dutch they say koppig or hardnekkig or halsstarrig and yo are totally right about that, because I try always to have a dogged determination not to change my attitude or position when others don’t have good arguments or good reasons to change my opinion.
And In Spanish stubborn is :
obstinado, terco, tenaz, obcecado, duro, inquebrantable.
Saludos y abrazos,
Pablo de Boer
Copy, Cut, and Paste Tutorial for Beginners using Windows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhXg4tvIft4
What’s Pretentious in Spanish Pablo? You would know.
Muchas gracais Pablo de Pretencioso.
George ought to help? Are you kidding me?? What are we in third grade again. Most if not everything you stated is fallacy. Take robotics, since someone mentioned it. This technology could not be developed in the private sector and hence was developed in the state sector, mainly the military. It is then, through some magical process, handed over to the private sector so that they may profit from publicly funded research and technology. There are many examples like this
I mentioned the robots. Or rather how I’ rather buy one than hire you. You state that private citizens couldn’t develop robots, but you don’t give any reason why. Do you think it’s because it’s too expensive? It’s not. It only looks that way due to government waste. It was developed in the private sector, or did you not hear about automation in factories? Also note how all the cool robots are being developed in Japan. The private sector develops robots that build things and that you can have sex with. The robots you refer to as government developments seem to be preoccupied with killing people. That’s a government specialty. If I had a choice between sex and killing, I’d choose sex. If you are going to make an assertion, please give us a reason as to why you believe this is so. Just saying it is, doesn’t make it so.
i don’t see many solutions offered here. i do have real world experience. back in 1980 i started a job at roughly $5.50 and remained in that same job with the same title till 2013, making $18.50. during those years we got a “cost of living”raise which was half of the announced inflation rate, so never any way to actually catch up. in 1980 inflation was %18, we got %9, which sounds good but actually lost %9 of spending power. on and on thru the years. i won’t even go into how the announced inflation rate is usually understated. along with the insane increase in percentages of CEO and upper management salaries, further stratifying the wage disparity. i don’t see $15 as way out of line. it would just be drowning in a little less water.
Good anecdote. Thanks.
I remember the 80’s. The inflation and loan interest rates were way, way up there.
One of the reasons we haven’t had any solutions is because this comment section began in a degraded state. We have yet to advance that far because there are so many commentators here who are not even close to being able to converse on that level. There are solutions, they are legion and well-known. But they won’t be found here. The level of understanding of the most basic points of economics aren’t up to it. That is truly sad.
On a lighter note. I remember getting a “good” deal on my first loan (where I learned to never take out loans) for a motorcycle. It was 1981 and I was able to get a $2,000 loan with only 21% interest! Wow! Since the entire oil embargo was basically a state controlled affair, one can only bless the powers that be for their benevolence in granting me such a great deal. Long live the state! Now give me my freaking soma! 🙂 Jim
Jim, I remember those interest rates. In 1981 or 1982, I took my stationwagon title to get a loan so I could try a business venture. The business venture of selling pictures on the side of the road paid off. I used the loan money to buy inventory. Some weeks I was making $1,000 – $2,000 cash profit after I built up my inventory.
That’s funny! Not the story itself, but in 1989. just after my divorce, I did pretty much the exact same thing! I had a job (Army), but didn’t use that money. Also, it was an all cash business, so there were no taxes, just real business costs. Errr, did I just say I didn’t give up my money to the armed robbers? 🙂
Hi taylrmd,
The solution follows from the article, but anyway, here goes:
Problem: The introduction of MW laws or raising the MW results in higher unemployment among marginal workers.
Solution: Don’t introduce MW laws.
Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Richard
Thanks. This comment section is so amazingly confused that I had forgotten that the solution has been presented so often!
That “solution†is of course only viable if the “problem†is stated correctly.
(And in my opinion it is not stated correctly. Minimum wage legislation is not bad for the labour market but basically a necessary tool to prevent market failure.)
Like I said, this comment section is so confused that I keep forgetting it has already been offered. And rejected by those least capable of understanding what a market is.
“Market failure” is a socialist myth. There is no such thing. What you may be calling market failure is the result of govt meddling, specifically in this instance, in the labor market. Minimum is only a tiny part of the meddling.
Is the statement that “there is no market failure†a belief or is there a scientific explanation or model that you could share with us?
Hi paul6,
1) The burden of proof is on you. You started out claiming “market failure” just like that, so be a sport and provide one example of free market failure where there’s no govt meddling/state interventionism in play.
2) As a statist, you must acknowledge the fact that you’re willing to threaten peaceful people with violence to make them pay for your noble causes.
Like ccuthbert2001’s saying, go to Mises.org and enjoy the wealth of information. All the classics are there (for free!) for you to delve into.
Don’t jump into Mises’ Human Action right away though. A good start would be Hazlitt’s Economics in One Lesson (free pdf on Mises.org) and don’t forget to check out some of the Tom Woods lectures. Listening to those will put a smile on your face, while also learning a thing or two about history/economics. And like I said, plenty of room for debate after that. So enjoy:
mises.org/library/economics-one-lesson
mises.org/library/libertarian-gallop-through-american-history (Tom Woods, highly recommended)
Cheers from Amsterdam,
Richard
Re: the first point.
I’ll even help you paul6. This would be the sort of example you’d come up with if you tried. It’s from the Great Depression era. Due to “market failure”, farmers are doing bad. Luckily for them, the US govt steps in and forcefully (as with MW) improves their situation..
youtu.be/BRhtmcxDSIs?t=31m22s
To me, the solution is very simple and can be done immediately. (And is something which I often do.)
VOLUNTARY
For the folks who feel that every hourly worker must make more money, then give them more money. Tip every hourly laborer in every store or venue with which they interact, regardless of service or quality.
Starbucks has a tip jar. Many establishments do. But giving money away to others is not against the law. It can done easily.
Personally, when I run across wonderful service, I try to exchange. It might be a survey, a smile with voiced appreciation, a compliment to the manager or cash or gifts or free 9/11 DVDs.
Just last week, I tipped a fin to an hourly overweight clerk at the dry cleaners. I needed some recycled coat hangers for a garden project. She was more than helpful. She lit up on the tip.
But I will punch any guy who mandates that I must tip everyone.
That’s not a solution, that’s simply an inverse.
There is only one real solution–free market. If you want to know why, read everything at Mises.org. Short of that, it’s constant govt meddling that screws the little guy, and we are left to trying to game the system.
Koch industries bought up all the economic departments. what do you expect will happen? We now have a bunch of lame brains regurgitating the status quo. Sure Deregulate, Let that man work for two dollars an hour, it’s freedom baby… FREEDOM!
You should really study economics before you start lecturing everyone about it. That way you won’t look like an ignorant baboon. Sorry baboons.
Yup, wingsuitfreak continues to bully those he disagrees with. Guess that’s all he has to offer.
Corbett! Thank you! Great link…
The Beatles’ Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band – STAR WARS Style
http://www.paletteswapninja.com/2017/05/01/new-album-princess-leias-stolen-death-star-plans/
i also had trouble with the idea that we ‘have to listen to the “economists” on this one’. are these the same economists that have been running and guiding this system in the first place? i don’t have the answers but i see the MW staying the same while every other level of the stratified economy rocketing skyward. the whole modern economic model is based on monetization.. of everything.. every product, service, money itself. everything has been bought up and used by the wall street, hedge fund operators.. think “Pharmaboy” etc… precious metals was the first (cornering the markets), but now every business chain is owned and controlled by nameless people who’s only interest is the bottom line and their profits, so they ship the good jobs overseas, the jobs that are left are turned into part time jobs, that may pay over MW but are not livable… they have a huge out of work labor pool to resupply the PT jobs as people come and go, the people suffer, the work itself suffers, the consumers suffer, but the billionaires are at least “making a living”, except for those who have to take part time jobs running the government…
Agreed. Corbett was unconvincing on this subject. At best.
A lot covered! More than I can do comprehensive justice to here, but a good place to start.
1)
I understand your general narrative to revolve around the structures provided by classical marketplace mechanics, and I find these faulty.
The examples you give as being proofs of the failures of minimum-wage policies are based on factors precipitated by capitalist controllers, which means they can specifically have been implemented as strategies to support the conclusions made, as well as having other associated motives.
The robust and complex counter-labor strategies utilized by “Management†are perhaps underestimated by even those of us who are familiar with them in other contexts, but the point is that this is in no way an outlandish or irrelevant mitigating factor.
But the “facts†as you provide them are presented as simple scientific observations with simple scientific conclusions, as might have been possible in a chemistry-lab experiment, not from the messy, contaminated world in which we all live.
E.g.: Why is the price of oil the price of oil? Do you figure it’s safe to presume that’s manipulated at all?
Yet every day people talk about the “objective,†“independent†influences on the price of oil in the “marketplace.â€
2)
The argument as you make it tends to support two perspectives on the world which you are on the record for opposing, as I am myself: a.) the false right-left political dichotomy; and b) technocracy.
Classical marketplace economics is a type of technocracy – which is to say a type of scientism!
I see a trend that traditional cultures tended to anthropomorphize the observable world, and that modern cultures tend to unjustifiably objectify social realities as independent of human bias, which is the bases of scientism (the religious-like cultivation of the aesthetics of scientific methodology).
3)
I see the minimum-wage campaigns as a sort of dumbed-down educational program that avoids direct allusion to unsavory truths about pretty much every corner of our globe – “employees†are basically slaves, and that has a fundamental truthfulness to it that transcends hyperbole.
There is a practical motivation (mistaken?) of at least starting – organizing – people on the path to recognizing this, as well as the problem of creating opportunities for Soros-types to exploit this development.
Perhaps pursuing minimum-wage is simplistic, but failures in outcomes should neither succeed in convincing people that economic inequities are natural, normal, inevitable or necessary, or that any address must be put off until a “cultural revolution†in consciousness is achieved!
“Marketplace†philosophies are continually promoted by the ruling oligarchs whose main goals are deceptive corporatist-friendly rhetoric and cultural-memes.
It is safe that we agree corporatism is the modern antithesis of anti-statist philosophy and voluntarism.
Corporations are bastions of hierarchy that shamelessly cloak themselves in contradictory false narratives of equality simultaneously with elitism, and freedom simultaneously with conformity to “self-regulation†as dictated from above in the corporate hierarchy.
Meanwhile it’s true: they make people suffer and keep them down with unfair compensation for their labor.
I wandered into this video thanks to obviously broken youtube suggestion system.
What I learned working in a UK job centre #WeAreAllDanielBlake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FR0EoRHTfI
This is a very packed 22 minute video focusing on experiences of a man who comes from a background in which it is “normal” to get entangled in the social net in the UK, with a break down of what that meant prior and post 2008.