Interview 1439 – Davi Barker on Authoritarian Sociopathy
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Davi Barker of The Black Sale joins us to discuss his book, Authoritarian Sociopathy. We talk about the various psychological experiments that have been done in the past to show people’s propensity to obey or disobey authority, and Barker proposes his own experiment that could take this research even further.
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SHOW NOTES:
The Black Sale
Davi Barker – Authoritarian Sociopathy – Libertopia 2013
The TSA Is A Milgram Experiment
Interview 1421 – Bruce Levine on Resisting Illegitimate Authority
Filed in: Interviews
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EMPATHY
The more similar an organism to myself the more I will empathize; I have an easier time eating beef than monkey meat. If somebody that is very similar to me suffers, I have an easy time putting myself in their shoes. Because it could happen to me it is important that I pay close attention. Trump will never be in my shoes so the suffering of a dog is more meaningful to him.
I was surprised to come across a poll at Derrick Broze’s website asking if he should run for mayor of Houston. A sliver of his readership clicked a majority vote in support of his running; a combined “No” and “Hell No, You Sell Out!” (my vote) still falls short of those in favor, which I find incredible. I don’t think he’d stand a chance anyway, but in an imaginary scenario, I do believe the disturbing tendencies noted in Davi Barker’s book would soon manifest.
Question: in the experiment where the two groups of authority were asked to describe a previously held position of either “legitimate” or “illegitimate” authority, were any of those situations described? Unless any of the subjects were already of an anarchist bent, it would be very difficult to recall a time of illegitimate authority. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of such a position, except “Oh, yeah, that time I was head of the neighborhood drug ring – I feel kinda bad about smashing Vito’s kneecaps.”
Great conversation. Funny thing happened yesterday, I attended a superior court session with a friend for a fine reduction motion and after the judge seated herself she made a declaration as to possible conflicts of interest as she had worked for the prosecutor’s office previously and her husband was currently working for that same office and if anyone had any protestations this was the time to make a motion. This was very interesting as just for a smirking wink wink moment she had to prostrate herself unto an authority greater than herself, the robe had been lifted, and for a fleeting second the overwhelming contextual truth paved a path for consideration of empathy for the human element in the meat-grinder of the parasitic justice system. People say that it is always best to be first on the docket while the judge is in reasonable spirits and ot turned out great for my friend, fines reduced from 8k to 2k with the mark of the crown’s agent and 19 pages of documents pre-completed. It’s not making money it’s losing less when exposed to government entities.
Given that in 2008 Wall street bankers walked free from the banking debacle, it should not be a surprise that people in power feel empowered to lie cheat and steal.
However if these same bankers had gone to Jail as did Bernie Madoff. In addition these same bankers like drug dealer had all their wealth etc. stripped from them. Those that followed in there stead would not feel so sure of the position of power. Rather they would be in fear of the law and the public power to hold them to account.
What this presentation shows me is there is a delusional state of mind that feels there will be no consequence resulting from unethical and brutal activities for personal gain. This may be true in some cases. However we are subject to physics and there are consequences to ones actions. Likewise there are moral/ethical norms and at some point they swing the other way. Sadly never coming to rest in the middle where compassion and wisdom meet.
Aware that I haven’t read the book, I foresee a complication with the design of the proposed police aggression-versus-civilian aggression experiment. A difference in subjects’ intervention rates in police vs. civilian would not necessarily be due entirely to a difference in perceived legitimacy of the actions. Another variable comes to mind. Since virtually everyone knows that resisting police aggression (against oneself or others) will make the resisting person a de jure criminal (with some notable exceptions) and trigger an escalating use of force from the police (use of more lethal weapons, backup from other police — which would not be the case with a civilian aggressor), a subject’s nonintervention could be due to a higher fear of harm to himself or herself while still viewing the police aggression as illegitimate. Maybe a video game format could eliminate this factor since it eliminates the possibility of physical bodily harm.
“It is difficult for men in high office to avoid the malady of self-delusion. They are always surrounded by worshipers. They are constantly, and for the most part sincerely, assured of their greatness. They live in an artificial atmosphere of adulation and exaltation which sooner or later impairs their judgment. They are in grave danger of becoming careless and arrogant.”
–President Calvin Coolidge
I talked about this proposed experiment back in 2017 on AM talk radio. I hope they do it. In my version the cop or civilian was beating up an old lady, with the hypothesis that people would not intervene on the old ladies behalf when the cop is doing the beating, but would with the civilian.
I’d like to suggest that a cost effective method of observing some of these sociopathic behaviors in a natural environment would be simply to observe the daily operations at your local Department of Motor Vehicles, where petty officials brandish their “authority” and the victims willingly line up and watch others be robbed and bureaucratically abused. In speaking with a security guard at the DMV recently, he spoke of the absoulute hell it was to work there, as the abuse that emanated from behind the governmental desk was not only given to the public, but also filtered down the differing strata of employees, and the rage that was often generated thereby led to violence, hence the need for a security guard. ( And a poster on the wall warning of the consequences of threatening a public employee.)
This was such a fascinating conversation. Thanks for the food for thought. I have some thoughts about the terms discussed here. Steven Porges, a neuroscientists, distinguishes empathy from compassion. He notes that neurologically, when feeling or expressing empathy one is using the sympathetic nervous system (fight or flight). He defines compassion by the use of the parasympathetic nervous system (rest and digest). I wonder if there is a way to define neurologically (which neurological state sympathetic or parasympathetic) sociopathic behavior utilizes? If so, is there a measurable differnece of those in power sympathetically and therefore empathically responding from those parasympathetically and therefore compassionately responding? Ultimately is there a measurable difference between those in power responding sociopathically from those compassionately.. since compassion would not elicit an autonomic behavioral response? Do people who act with compassion seek positions of power? Do those who neurologically present more sociopathically seek positions of power over those empathetic or compassionate ones? So many questions can be derived from this concept. Excited to hear more.
Awesome questions and ideas. Thank you.
bharani
I agree!
I have already watched this twice.
There are a lot of important insights.
I plan to review the video for a third time.
This is a 5 STAR interview!
*****
I too am excited to hear more. I offer my little city as a fertile laboratory for the two needed types in leadership that Kinetics suggests for study.
Can you imagine the absurdity of a technician approaching a billionaire Zionist bank owner and suggesting “he be part of a study.” of course he will ask what are you studying? You know what he is going to say after a pregnant phase…”get T.. F… out!”
I have a long list of one type and a much shorter list of the other type if anyone cares to pursue it.